5 ms·

My original example of a kid breaking something and the law coming after the parent was chosen in hopes of not getting into this kind of conversation. It was ch

by Mz 10y ago

My original example of a kid breaking something and the law coming after the parent was chosen in hopes of not getting into this kind of conversation. It was chosen as something that should be obviously true and not arguable. I try really hard to be careful about talking about parenting because I am aware that I was fortunate to be in a position to insist on no excuses. I was able to be a full time mom, in part because my ex was career military, and also my parents were very big on the idea that kids need a full time care taker, so they helped make it possible for me to put my kids first. But I am talented at certain kinds of insights and one of my rules was that if my kid did not like someone, they were not left with them. So, I did feel responsible for making sure they were generally not left in the care of some dumbass nutcase who might hand them a gun. Nothing as extreme as you describe ever happened, because I was incredibly vigilant about details like vetting folks whom I left my kids with. So, your example really does not work for me and I imagine we are not going to see eye to eye on this point.

derefr 10y ago
I was trying to intentionally create an example that avoided any case where "vigilance" would have made a difference, but I guess I wasn't clear. I don't know the age of your children, but speaking of them in a general sense (i.e. they'll still be "your child" until they're 18), I presume they will at some point go to a store on their own, take public transit, etc.? That is, they will be out in public without you, if just for a few minutes, and an adult will be able to just wander up to them and coerce them. Homeschooling doesn't do much to stop this; only bubble-boy paranoia can (and even then...) But really, even then, people can still break into your home. (Or, as I said, hit your house with their car.) You'd have to live in a bunker.
- Mz 10y ago
  My oldest will soon be thirty. I fundamentally do not agree with you. My sons were raised with real agency and genuine respect from the get go. They did not cave to bullying by adults, even as children. When away from me in public school, they inferred that they were entitled to enforce the standards I had set at home and they were not inclined to take shit off anyone. This is not an argument you will "win" with me. Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that I am fortunate to have had latitude and insight that many parents do not have. I try like hell to not blame other parents when they fail and, instead, to empower them to do better. But my children are grown, I know the results of my handiwork and I basically am a kickass parent. We should probably just end this discussion here. No one ever wants to believe that any parent can meet the standard I consistently set for myself as a parent.
  - Sorreah 10y ago
    No one has a hard time believing you are a good parent. And I doubt anyone really cares much, as we've gone far beyond the point of providing a personal anecdote to help with arguing a point, and instead we're at the point of almost bragging. The point is: You argued people get deemed responsible for things entirely outside their control, and as an example you pointed out parents are expected to pay for something their kids broke. The first person to responded pointed out that you're usually not deemed accountable for things entirely outside your control, and in the case of a kid breaking something, you're expected to pay because you have a large amount of control over your kids habits, and you certainly have a large amount of control over your kids whereabouts, so them throwing a stone to break a window is something you could have avoided. And no one deems you responsible you for things that you couldn't truly control about your kid. As an example, if your kid hits someone with a medicine ball after their gym teacher instructs them to use them in a slightly dangerous way, no one would have you pay the other kid's hospital bill.
    - Mz 10y ago
      I am not trying to brag. I am trying to communicate. In insurance and legal settings, you are not responsible for "acts of God." Obviously, no one can control everything. But trying to figure out where to draw that line separates the wheat from the chaff, the ordinary businesses from the good ones. Parenting is where I have substantial experience. And it gets all kinds of push back. It is a subtle form of sexism: My experiences do not count because they are mom experiences. It is kind of like the use of the dismissive term "mommy bloggers." I never hear the term "daddy bloggers." Einstein said something once like "Talented people solve problems. Geniuses prevent them." A healthy no excuses culture is one where the emphasis is on preventing them. I did that as a parent. But feel free to give me yet one more BS excuse as to why my point of view and examples are somehow invalid, as if that is clever and nothing I have ever heard before.

by Mz 10y ago

derefr 10y ago

I was trying to intentionally create an example that avoided any case where "vigilance" would have made a difference, but I guess I wasn't clear. I don't know the age of your children, but speaking of them in a general sense (i.e. they'll still be "your child" until they're 18), I presume they will at some point go to a store on their own, take public transit, etc.? That is, they will be out in public without you, if just for a few minutes, and an adult will be able to just wander up to them and coerce them. Homeschooling doesn't do much to stop this; only bubble-boy paranoia can (and even then...) But really, even then, people can still break into your home. (Or, as I said, hit your house with their car.) You'd have to live in a bunker.

Mz 10y ago
My oldest will soon be thirty. I fundamentally do not agree with you. My sons were raised with real agency and genuine respect from the get go. They did not cave to bullying by adults, even as children. When away from me in public school, they inferred that they were entitled to enforce the standards I had set at home and they were not inclined to take shit off anyone. This is not an argument you will "win" with me. Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that I am fortunate to have had latitude and insight that many parents do not have. I try like hell to not blame other parents when they fail and, instead, to empower them to do better. But my children are grown, I know the results of my handiwork and I basically am a kickass parent. We should probably just end this discussion here. No one ever wants to believe that any parent can meet the standard I consistently set for myself as a parent.
- Sorreah 10y ago
  No one has a hard time believing you are a good parent. And I doubt anyone really cares much, as we've gone far beyond the point of providing a personal anecdote to help with arguing a point, and instead we're at the point of almost bragging. The point is: You argued people get deemed responsible for things entirely outside their control, and as an example you pointed out parents are expected to pay for something their kids broke. The first person to responded pointed out that you're usually not deemed accountable for things entirely outside your control, and in the case of a kid breaking something, you're expected to pay because you have a large amount of control over your kids habits, and you certainly have a large amount of control over your kids whereabouts, so them throwing a stone to break a window is something you could have avoided. And no one deems you responsible you for things that you couldn't truly control about your kid. As an example, if your kid hits someone with a medicine ball after their gym teacher instructs them to use them in a slightly dangerous way, no one would have you pay the other kid's hospital bill.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I am not trying to brag. I am trying to communicate. In insurance and legal settings, you are not responsible for "acts of God." Obviously, no one can control everything. But trying to figure out where to draw that line separates the wheat from the chaff, the ordinary businesses from the good ones. Parenting is where I have substantial experience. And it gets all kinds of push back. It is a subtle form of sexism: My experiences do not count because they are mom experiences. It is kind of like the use of the dismissive term "mommy bloggers." I never hear the term "daddy bloggers." Einstein said something once like "Talented people solve problems. Geniuses prevent them." A healthy no excuses culture is one where the emphasis is on preventing them. I did that as a parent. But feel free to give me yet one more BS excuse as to why my point of view and examples are somehow invalid, as if that is clever and nothing I have ever heard before.