3 ms·

But a parent, or a military officer, or a corporate executive, usually isn't blamed for what amounts to "enemy action"—where something intentionally malicious o

by Mz 10y ago

But a parent, or a military officer, or a corporate executive, usually isn't blamed for what amounts to "enemy action"—where something intentionally malicious out-thinks every preparation you've made and goes ahead and ruins your day anyway. Parents, for example, aren't blamed for what their children do when they've been told to do that thing by another authority figure. Executives aren't blamed for rival companies' industrial sabotage. Generals aren't blamed if a sudden trap is sprung during a retreat, turning it into a rout. High ranking officers can be relieved of command for doing the right thing, but breaking the rules to do it, a la this based-on-a-true-story movie: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_Enemy_Lines_(2001_film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_Enemy_Lines_(2001_fil... I pulled my kids at homeschooled when it turned out the public schools were a mess where we moved for one duty station. I am "The buck stops here" kind of parent. Other adults being assholes and fucking up my kid is not an acceptable justification for letting my kids get fucked up. My kids are intensely loyal to me. They know I can be trusted to do what is in their best interest, no excuses.

derefr 10y ago
> Other adults being assholes and fucking up my kid is not an acceptable justification for letting my kids get fucked up. To be clear, I wasn't talking about things that have negative impacts on your child, but rather things that society blames your child for, and then redirects that blame to you. An example: if your 10-year-old child just grabs a loaded gun off a table and shoots someone, whether this ends up deemed "accidental" or not, whether someone else is to blame for leaving a loaded gun there or not, people will still (at least partially) blame you for that—for (presumably) not instilling gun safety rules into your child. But if your 10-year-old child is handed a gun by another adult, and told to shoot someone, blame for that would never land on you: society would deem that coercion, due to the power-imbalance between adults and children, just as much as if an adult were told to shoot someone with a gun held to their own head. You might blame yourself for the trauma your kid suffers from having shot someone, sure. But, in the situation above, I don't think even you would think you somehow held ultimate causal responsibility for the shooting occurring in the first place. It'd be like blaming yourself for a drunk driver driving through the front of your house and killing someone you love: essentially an "act of god" that happened to have been performed by another human being.
- Mz 10y ago
  My original example of a kid breaking something and the law coming after the parent was chosen in hopes of not getting into this kind of conversation. It was chosen as something that should be obviously true and not arguable. I try really hard to be careful about talking about parenting because I am aware that I was fortunate to be in a position to insist on no excuses. I was able to be a full time mom, in part because my ex was career military, and also my parents were very big on the idea that kids need a full time care taker, so they helped make it possible for me to put my kids first. But I am talented at certain kinds of insights and one of my rules was that if my kid did not like someone, they were not left with them. So, I did feel responsible for making sure they were generally not left in the care of some dumbass nutcase who might hand them a gun. Nothing as extreme as you describe ever happened, because I was incredibly vigilant about details like vetting folks whom I left my kids with. So, your example really does not work for me and I imagine we are not going to see eye to eye on this point.
  - derefr 10y ago
    I was trying to intentionally create an example that avoided any case where "vigilance" would have made a difference, but I guess I wasn't clear. I don't know the age of your children, but speaking of them in a general sense (i.e. they'll still be "your child" until they're 18), I presume they will at some point go to a store on their own, take public transit, etc.? That is, they will be out in public without you, if just for a few minutes, and an adult will be able to just wander up to them and coerce them. Homeschooling doesn't do much to stop this; only bubble-boy paranoia can (and even then...) But really, even then, people can still break into your home. (Or, as I said, hit your house with their car.) You'd have to live in a bunker.
    - Mz 10y ago
      My oldest will soon be thirty. I fundamentally do not agree with you. My sons were raised with real agency and genuine respect from the get go. They did not cave to bullying by adults, even as children. When away from me in public school, they inferred that they were entitled to enforce the standards I had set at home and they were not inclined to take shit off anyone. This is not an argument you will "win" with me. Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that I am fortunate to have had latitude and insight that many parents do not have. I try like hell to not blame other parents when they fail and, instead, to empower them to do better. But my children are grown, I know the results of my handiwork and I basically am a kickass parent. We should probably just end this discussion here. No one ever wants to believe that any parent can meet the standard I consistently set for myself as a parent.

by Mz 10y ago

derefr 10y ago

> Other adults being assholes and fucking up my kid is not an acceptable justification for letting my kids get fucked up. To be clear, I wasn't talking about things that have negative impacts on your child, but rather things that society blames your child for, and then redirects that blame to you. An example: if your 10-year-old child just grabs a loaded gun off a table and shoots someone, whether this ends up deemed "accidental" or not, whether someone else is to blame for leaving a loaded gun there or not, people will still (at least partially) blame you for that—for (presumably) not instilling gun safety rules into your child. But if your 10-year-old child is handed a gun by another adult, and told to shoot someone, blame for that would never land on you: society would deem that coercion, due to the power-imbalance between adults and children, just as much as if an adult were told to shoot someone with a gun held to their own head. You might blame yourself for the trauma your kid suffers from having shot someone, sure. But, in the situation above, I don't think even you would think you somehow held ultimate causal responsibility for the shooting occurring in the first place. It'd be like blaming yourself for a drunk driver driving through the front of your house and killing someone you love: essentially an "act of god" that happened to have been performed by another human being.

Mz 10y ago
My original example of a kid breaking something and the law coming after the parent was chosen in hopes of not getting into this kind of conversation. It was chosen as something that should be obviously true and not arguable. I try really hard to be careful about talking about parenting because I am aware that I was fortunate to be in a position to insist on no excuses. I was able to be a full time mom, in part because my ex was career military, and also my parents were very big on the idea that kids need a full time care taker, so they helped make it possible for me to put my kids first. But I am talented at certain kinds of insights and one of my rules was that if my kid did not like someone, they were not left with them. So, I did feel responsible for making sure they were generally not left in the care of some dumbass nutcase who might hand them a gun. Nothing as extreme as you describe ever happened, because I was incredibly vigilant about details like vetting folks whom I left my kids with. So, your example really does not work for me and I imagine we are not going to see eye to eye on this point.
- derefr 10y ago
  I was trying to intentionally create an example that avoided any case where "vigilance" would have made a difference, but I guess I wasn't clear. I don't know the age of your children, but speaking of them in a general sense (i.e. they'll still be "your child" until they're 18), I presume they will at some point go to a store on their own, take public transit, etc.? That is, they will be out in public without you, if just for a few minutes, and an adult will be able to just wander up to them and coerce them. Homeschooling doesn't do much to stop this; only bubble-boy paranoia can (and even then...) But really, even then, people can still break into your home. (Or, as I said, hit your house with their car.) You'd have to live in a bunker.
  - Mz 10y ago
    My oldest will soon be thirty. I fundamentally do not agree with you. My sons were raised with real agency and genuine respect from the get go. They did not cave to bullying by adults, even as children. When away from me in public school, they inferred that they were entitled to enforce the standards I had set at home and they were not inclined to take shit off anyone. This is not an argument you will "win" with me. Suffice it to say that I acknowledge that I am fortunate to have had latitude and insight that many parents do not have. I try like hell to not blame other parents when they fail and, instead, to empower them to do better. But my children are grown, I know the results of my handiwork and I basically am a kickass parent. We should probably just end this discussion here. No one ever wants to believe that any parent can meet the standard I consistently set for myself as a parent.