7 ms·

This reads like a thousand other articles over decades, like moral panic. There's always some new drug that's coming along, whether meth, this, bath salts, wha

by moxious 10y ago

This reads like a thousand other articles over decades, like moral panic. There's always some new drug that's coming along, whether meth, this, bath salts, whatever. When will culture come to its senses and realize that humans like to get high and that this will never stop? Let's just focus on giving users accurate information and pathways out of usage, and skip the moral panics and claims that X is "sweeping the nation".

bigdubs 10y ago
Common sense doesn't sell ads though, and news sites need to hype fear to drive viewership / readership.
M_Grey 10y ago
Just from the headline, it strikes me like a sound argument for an end to prohibition.
sergers 10y ago
Drugs are being cut with synthetic opiodes, so potent that literally an extra flake in your drug of choice will kill you, unbeknownst to the end user. This affects junkies to occasional/recreational drug users. Not sure about the US, but there has been significant overdoses and fatalities relating to fentanyl and other related. It's a word of caution, you don't know what's in your drugs, it can kill you more than ever.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bluedino 10y ago
  >> It's a word of caution, you don't know what's in your drugs, it can kill you more than ever. People aren't very selective at what they stick up their nose or in their veins. Your average cocaine end-user is the 14th person who's had their hands on that particular drug. Chances are it's been cut with who the heck knows what at every step along the way, since everyone wants to maximize their profits. When you get a package of what-should-be drugs from China or Colombia or anywhere, who's to say what's actually in it? The FDA isn't testing that stuff. If you think it's heroin and there's even a little fentanyl mixed in it, your last use could be fatal.
  - mjevans 10y ago
    I never finished watching Breaking Bad, but the season or two that I did watch did make me think: How much safer would 'recreational users' be if they had a legal, clean (pure), supply and a place to use it where they are monitored? As the parent posts have said, the above combined with help for getting out of the hole in the same place would probably be more effective. It would /ALSO/ be the most effective way of defeating the criminals that make money off of the drugs; by depriving them of sales.
    - geoffmcc 10y ago
      > How much safer would 'recreational users' be if they had a legal, clean (pure), supply and a place to use it where they are monitored? I don't have any stats to provide, but if your interested (as far as heroin) check out the Netherlands. Last i knew they had a program. Edit: I believe the Netherlands have had their program since sometime in the 90's, so there should be data available.
    - ncocacola 10y ago
      This has already been implemented in some European countries, I know they opened what's called a "salle de shoot" ("supervised injection site" in English) last year in Paris. I don't think there's any data out yet, but the idea was to prevent overdoses, but also provide clean syringes to avoid HIV transmission.
      - jdc 10y ago
        There's a decent amount of research based out of the site in Vancouver. https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=insite+vancouver https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=insite+vancouver
    - goatsi 10y ago
      Much safer. This Swiss have implemented this and have published the results. There were large improvements in almost every public health/safety issue caused by heroin use [0]. >Crime Issues: 60% drop in felony crimes by patients (80% drop after one year in the program). 82% drop in patients selling heroin. >Death Rates: No one has died from a heroin overdose since the inception of the program. The heroin used is inspected for purity and strength by technicians. >Disease Rates: New infections of Hepatitis and HIV have been reduced for patients in the program. >New Use Rates: Slightly lower than expected. 1) As reported in the Lancet June 3, 2006, the medicalisation of using heroin has tarnished the image of heroin and made it unattractive to young people. 2) Most new users are introduced to heroin by members of their social group and 50% of users also deal to support their habit. Therefore, with so many users/sellers in treatment, non-users have fewer opportunities to be exposed to heroin, especially in the rural areas. >*Cost Issues: 48 dollars/day: Patient costs are covered by national health insurance agency. Patients pay 700 dollars/year for the compulsory insurance. Note: The Swiss save about 38 dollars per day per patient mostly in lowered costs for court and police time, due to less crime committed by the patients. [0] http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-heroin-assisted-treatment-1994-2009-summary/ http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-h...
- geoffmcc 10y ago
  > Not sure about the US, but there has been significant overdoses and fatalities relating to fentanyl and other related. Same here in the US. I live in a heavily effected area and its always the same thing fentanyl. People are used to taking a certain dose so that's what they do not knowing fentanyl is in there and it usually results in a death unless someone has or can get narcan there quickly. Part of me wonders why they don't just do a little first and then do more, but I guess I get it- they are addicted and they just want their fix ASAP.
  - Nugem_ 10y ago
    It would seem logical to use a little to test the potency of a new batch especially. Unfortunately, as an ex user, when you're sick, you're going to do your usual shot or more. I've lost a few friends that were coming down to hard to care about a little to get well first. Big shot, dead.
    - sergers 10y ago
      That's the thing though, a difference of smaller than a grain of salt would be a death sentence. So if you try a small sample, or a large one, it doesn't matter.. it could be the next hit you try has that extra microgram of fentanyl. I have had friends with brothers who died from taking a all night study aid in university, that happened to have Carfentanyl in it. Always caution on the side of safe regardless of what type of illicit drug is, or if it's your first time, once in a lifetime. They just don't make illicit drugs like they use to... They could definately kill u always, but now the potency of a microgram difference can and that's pretty scary.
      - bsder 10y ago
        > They just don't make illicit drugs like they use to... They could definately kill u always, but now the potency of a microgram difference can and that's pretty scary. Actually, this has kind of always been true. http://everything2.com/title/Heroin%252C+MPTP%252C+and+the+key+to+Parkinson%2527s+Disease http://everything2.com/title/Heroin%252C+MPTP%252C+and+the+k... The problem is that an illegal drug has no quality control. If you want to stop this kind of stuff, legalizing it is one of the few (possibly only) useful solutions.
zhengiszen 10y ago
Some would say it is just karma or blow back for all the unjust wars the US of America keep on waging to keep its monopoly on resources, be it oil, drugs or human resources...
- cnnsucks 10y ago
  Indeed, "some" do. Also, some would have you take your Blame America First group-think elsewhere instead of shitting up HN with it.
mtdewcmu 10y ago
I didn't find it to be sensationalized, at least not when judged relative to other media. I think carfentanil actually poses a unique challenge, because it's extremely potent and it's hard to accurately portion out such small doses.
tcj_phx 10y ago
> When will culture come to its senses and realize that humans like to get high and that this will never stop? People who become addicts don't like the highs and lows of the emotional roller coaster they're on, but it's the only way they know to cope with their emotional/physiological angst. I've met someone who'd used cocaine 'recreationally'. His attitude was "been there, done that, don't need to use again." Most of the street pharmacy's customers are self-medicating emotional pain. My mom didn't get hooked on the opiates her doctor recently gave her for her broken arm because she has a supportive environment. The friend (who I've written about here before) relapsed on cocaine because she was depressed. Then she relapsed on heroin, supposedly to treat the high blood pressure cocaine gave her (but probably more because she needed something to 'numb' emotional pain). This was the summer before she met me. Really I think she just must've been lonely. This week I found a copy of a book she gave me for my birthday after we met. She inscribed it, in part, "my heart melted the moment I first heard you speak." I think I've successfully bullied her current court-ordered mental health providers into recognizing the mistaken diagnosis made by their colleagues in the other county. The earlier psychiatrists just thought she was "persistently disabled" because they didn't try to figure out why she'd become psychotic in the first place (doctor-administered depo provera birth control injections made her suicidal -> street pharmacy -> psychosis).
- swift 10y ago
  To add to what you're saying, many users aren't just self-medicating emotional pain, but serious psychiatric illnesses. This can be for a number of reasons: lack of insurance coverage, difficulty navigating the medical system (which can be very challenging for someone with mental illness), and unfortunately, the fact that modern medical science just does not have effective treatments available for some of these conditions. Branding these people as criminals and throwing them in prison is outright cruel.
  - tcj_phx 10y ago
    > and unfortunately, the fact that modern medical science just does not have effective treatments available for some of these conditions. I suspect that many psychiatric illnesses are indicative of metabolic disorders, and/or malnourishment. An effort to apply the findings of physiology to psychiatric practice would certainly lead to an Understanding that would allow effective treatments to become mainstream. > Branding these people as criminals and throwing them in prison is outright cruel. In the future the 'war on plants' will certainly be recognized as a crime against humanity, or at least as society's autoimmune disease.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
You do a great disservice to the people overdosing with such a middling dismissal. This is not a 'moral panic' this is a medical disaster unfolding in slow motion. The combination of the technology to synthesize these drugs from unconstrained pre-cursors, the intensity of their effect, the lack of education on the part of consumers, and a tracking/enforcement system which responds more slowly than conditions change is leading to a situation where tens of thousands of people are going to die essentially at their own hand. It is not a question of 'people like to get high' it is that 'people getting high on arbitrary things will kill themselves'. I understand that you're approaching this from a legalization standpoint, and on that we agree. But the overdose rate is "actually" sweeping the country now and that is born out by the available reports of emergency rooms around the country. And between your "regulated and safe" future and now, there is a large pile of unnecessarily dead people.
- myowncrapulence 10y ago
  the lack of education on the part of consumers You realize if drugs were legal and regulated people wouldn't need to seek out desperate and risky online orders to satisfy their addiction? When weed was legalized in Oregon, I immediately knew exactly what strain/THC%/CBD% I was buying. This was not available on the black market. Education and security come from acceptance and regulation.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > When weed was legalized That is far less dangerous than opiates; I don't think it's comparable.
    - nedwin 10y ago
      If we had similar labelling for opiates, and distributed them in the same way we distribute booze or marijuana, surely they could be consumed more safely / appropriately. It seems the overdoses are not necessarily thrill seekers, but where the consumer doesn't know that they're taking a 5000x dose of morphine vs a 2.5x dose.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by moxious 10y ago

bigdubs 10y ago

Common sense doesn't sell ads though, and news sites need to hype fear to drive viewership / readership.

M_Grey 10y ago

Just from the headline, it strikes me like a sound argument for an end to prohibition.

sergers 10y ago

Drugs are being cut with synthetic opiodes, so potent that literally an extra flake in your drug of choice will kill you, unbeknownst to the end user. This affects junkies to occasional/recreational drug users. Not sure about the US, but there has been significant overdoses and fatalities relating to fentanyl and other related. It's a word of caution, you don't know what's in your drugs, it can kill you more than ever.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bluedino 10y ago
>> It's a word of caution, you don't know what's in your drugs, it can kill you more than ever. People aren't very selective at what they stick up their nose or in their veins. Your average cocaine end-user is the 14th person who's had their hands on that particular drug. Chances are it's been cut with who the heck knows what at every step along the way, since everyone wants to maximize their profits. When you get a package of what-should-be drugs from China or Colombia or anywhere, who's to say what's actually in it? The FDA isn't testing that stuff. If you think it's heroin and there's even a little fentanyl mixed in it, your last use could be fatal.
- mjevans 10y ago
  I never finished watching Breaking Bad, but the season or two that I did watch did make me think: How much safer would 'recreational users' be if they had a legal, clean (pure), supply and a place to use it where they are monitored? As the parent posts have said, the above combined with help for getting out of the hole in the same place would probably be more effective. It would /ALSO/ be the most effective way of defeating the criminals that make money off of the drugs; by depriving them of sales.
  - geoffmcc 10y ago
    > How much safer would 'recreational users' be if they had a legal, clean (pure), supply and a place to use it where they are monitored? I don't have any stats to provide, but if your interested (as far as heroin) check out the Netherlands. Last i knew they had a program. Edit: I believe the Netherlands have had their program since sometime in the 90's, so there should be data available.
  - ncocacola 10y ago
    This has already been implemented in some European countries, I know they opened what's called a "salle de shoot" ("supervised injection site" in English) last year in Paris. I don't think there's any data out yet, but the idea was to prevent overdoses, but also provide clean syringes to avoid HIV transmission.
    - jdc 10y ago
      There's a decent amount of research based out of the site in Vancouver. https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=insite+vancouver https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=insite+vancouver
  - goatsi 10y ago
    Much safer. This Swiss have implemented this and have published the results. There were large improvements in almost every public health/safety issue caused by heroin use [0]. >Crime Issues: 60% drop in felony crimes by patients (80% drop after one year in the program). 82% drop in patients selling heroin. >Death Rates: No one has died from a heroin overdose since the inception of the program. The heroin used is inspected for purity and strength by technicians. >Disease Rates: New infections of Hepatitis and HIV have been reduced for patients in the program. >New Use Rates: Slightly lower than expected. 1) As reported in the Lancet June 3, 2006, the medicalisation of using heroin has tarnished the image of heroin and made it unattractive to young people. 2) Most new users are introduced to heroin by members of their social group and 50% of users also deal to support their habit. Therefore, with so many users/sellers in treatment, non-users have fewer opportunities to be exposed to heroin, especially in the rural areas. >*Cost Issues: 48 dollars/day: Patient costs are covered by national health insurance agency. Patients pay 700 dollars/year for the compulsory insurance. Note: The Swiss save about 38 dollars per day per patient mostly in lowered costs for court and police time, due to less crime committed by the patients. [0] http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-heroin-assisted-treatment-1994-2009-summary/ http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-h...
geoffmcc 10y ago
> Not sure about the US, but there has been significant overdoses and fatalities relating to fentanyl and other related. Same here in the US. I live in a heavily effected area and its always the same thing fentanyl. People are used to taking a certain dose so that's what they do not knowing fentanyl is in there and it usually results in a death unless someone has or can get narcan there quickly. Part of me wonders why they don't just do a little first and then do more, but I guess I get it- they are addicted and they just want their fix ASAP.
- Nugem_ 10y ago
  It would seem logical to use a little to test the potency of a new batch especially. Unfortunately, as an ex user, when you're sick, you're going to do your usual shot or more. I've lost a few friends that were coming down to hard to care about a little to get well first. Big shot, dead.
  - sergers 10y ago
    That's the thing though, a difference of smaller than a grain of salt would be a death sentence. So if you try a small sample, or a large one, it doesn't matter.. it could be the next hit you try has that extra microgram of fentanyl. I have had friends with brothers who died from taking a all night study aid in university, that happened to have Carfentanyl in it. Always caution on the side of safe regardless of what type of illicit drug is, or if it's your first time, once in a lifetime. They just don't make illicit drugs like they use to... They could definately kill u always, but now the potency of a microgram difference can and that's pretty scary.
    - bsder 10y ago
      > They just don't make illicit drugs like they use to... They could definately kill u always, but now the potency of a microgram difference can and that's pretty scary. Actually, this has kind of always been true. http://everything2.com/title/Heroin%252C+MPTP%252C+and+the+key+to+Parkinson%2527s+Disease http://everything2.com/title/Heroin%252C+MPTP%252C+and+the+k... The problem is that an illegal drug has no quality control. If you want to stop this kind of stuff, legalizing it is one of the few (possibly only) useful solutions.

zhengiszen 10y ago

Some would say it is just karma or blow back for all the unjust wars the US of America keep on waging to keep its monopoly on resources, be it oil, drugs or human resources...

cnnsucks 10y ago
Indeed, "some" do. Also, some would have you take your Blame America First group-think elsewhere instead of shitting up HN with it.

mtdewcmu 10y ago

I didn't find it to be sensationalized, at least not when judged relative to other media. I think carfentanil actually poses a unique challenge, because it's extremely potent and it's hard to accurately portion out such small doses.

tcj_phx 10y ago

> When will culture come to its senses and realize that humans like to get high and that this will never stop? People who become addicts don't like the highs and lows of the emotional roller coaster they're on, but it's the only way they know to cope with their emotional/physiological angst. I've met someone who'd used cocaine 'recreationally'. His attitude was "been there, done that, don't need to use again." Most of the street pharmacy's customers are self-medicating emotional pain. My mom didn't get hooked on the opiates her doctor recently gave her for her broken arm because she has a supportive environment. The friend (who I've written about here before) relapsed on cocaine because she was depressed. Then she relapsed on heroin, supposedly to treat the high blood pressure cocaine gave her (but probably more because she needed something to 'numb' emotional pain). This was the summer before she met me. Really I think she just must've been lonely. This week I found a copy of a book she gave me for my birthday after we met. She inscribed it, in part, "my heart melted the moment I first heard you speak." I think I've successfully bullied her current court-ordered mental health providers into recognizing the mistaken diagnosis made by their colleagues in the other county. The earlier psychiatrists just thought she was "persistently disabled" because they didn't try to figure out why she'd become psychotic in the first place (doctor-administered depo provera birth control injections made her suicidal -> street pharmacy -> psychosis).

swift 10y ago
To add to what you're saying, many users aren't just self-medicating emotional pain, but serious psychiatric illnesses. This can be for a number of reasons: lack of insurance coverage, difficulty navigating the medical system (which can be very challenging for someone with mental illness), and unfortunately, the fact that modern medical science just does not have effective treatments available for some of these conditions. Branding these people as criminals and throwing them in prison is outright cruel.
- tcj_phx 10y ago
  > and unfortunately, the fact that modern medical science just does not have effective treatments available for some of these conditions. I suspect that many psychiatric illnesses are indicative of metabolic disorders, and/or malnourishment. An effort to apply the findings of physiology to psychiatric practice would certainly lead to an Understanding that would allow effective treatments to become mainstream. > Branding these people as criminals and throwing them in prison is outright cruel. In the future the 'war on plants' will certainly be recognized as a crime against humanity, or at least as society's autoimmune disease.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

You do a great disservice to the people overdosing with such a middling dismissal. This is not a 'moral panic' this is a medical disaster unfolding in slow motion. The combination of the technology to synthesize these drugs from unconstrained pre-cursors, the intensity of their effect, the lack of education on the part of consumers, and a tracking/enforcement system which responds more slowly than conditions change is leading to a situation where tens of thousands of people are going to die essentially at their own hand. It is not a question of 'people like to get high' it is that 'people getting high on arbitrary things will kill themselves'. I understand that you're approaching this from a legalization standpoint, and on that we agree. But the overdose rate is "actually" sweeping the country now and that is born out by the available reports of emergency rooms around the country. And between your "regulated and safe" future and now, there is a large pile of unnecessarily dead people.

myowncrapulence 10y ago
the lack of education on the part of consumers You realize if drugs were legal and regulated people wouldn't need to seek out desperate and risky online orders to satisfy their addiction? When weed was legalized in Oregon, I immediately knew exactly what strain/THC%/CBD% I was buying. This was not available on the black market. Education and security come from acceptance and regulation.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > When weed was legalized That is far less dangerous than opiates; I don't think it's comparable.
  - nedwin 10y ago
    If we had similar labelling for opiates, and distributed them in the same way we distribute booze or marijuana, surely they could be consumed more safely / appropriately. It seems the overdoses are not necessarily thrill seekers, but where the consumer doesn't know that they're taking a 5000x dose of morphine vs a 2.5x dose.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]