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So I have a serious question. If I worked on Google's self-driving project, how can I prevent me from using that knowledge at another company? More importantly,

by yeukhon 10y ago

So I have a serious question. If I worked on Google's self-driving project, how can I prevent me from using that knowledge at another company? More importantly, if i were truly one of the founding members of the projects, I would know inside out and best practices. So seriously, what should I do? Do I just pretend "I don't know the best practice" BS at my staff meeting?

HappyTypist 10y ago
There is a difference between applying existing field knowledge, and downloading tens of thousands of design documents from a server you normally did not access.
blurble 10y ago
You can probably reimplement (providing no patent infringement) but not steal. Same as if you built some kind of web app or other software.
EnFinlay 10y ago
Best practices !== detailed designs Best practices are not 9.7 gigs of data, designs, and calculations. Edit: I am assuming that the 9.7 gigs was data, designs and calculations. Could have been the best cat pictures ever. I just don't know.
- yeukhon 10y ago
  But what about knowing how to implement the algorithm? Even something like implementing a dashboard for SRE/DevOps, I can rebuild it given enough time again.
  - Qworg 10y ago
    The key statement is "given enough time". Innovation keeps moving; you're falling behind, even as you're trying to re-implement something you've done before.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  From what the article says it sounds like they should go after Levandowski as well.
jonknee 10y ago
Don't take the jewels with you.
alok-g 10y ago
>> how can I prevent me from using that knowledge at another company You are expected to distinguish between public-domain knowledge and company-confidential information. Public-domain knowledge includes knowledge that you can (legally) obtain without being a part of the company, that you had from before you joined the company (without being under an NDA), that the company chooses to disclose to the public itself like by publishing papers, etc. At a new company, you can as such freely describe published patents (i.e., those accessible publicly, whether approved yet or not) from the previous company, however, you or your new company are not expected to be violating any approved patents. It generally helps to not even disclose those inventions at the new company. "Best practices" are generally not confidential information belonging to a company, though that could theoretically be if they involve patentable inventions or trade secrets. Likewise, you are not expected to be taking out any documents on these best practices subject to copyrights.
ghaff 10y ago
As others have said, this case seems to go way beyond "best practices." However, in the more general case, it probably depends in part on what sort of agreements you've signed. It's also one of the reasons why non-competes do exist and are enforced in many places. As you suggest, if you're a project lead for $FOO technology at Company A and you jump to Company B which wants to get in the $FOO business, the reality is that you're being hired only because you're familiar with what Company A is doing and has learned about $FOO. You may not hold a meeting and do a brain dump of everything you know about what you learned while at Company A (which might well violate employment contracts and would generally be unethical) but you'll absolutely be transferring knowledge. Of course, this happens all the time at some level when people move between companies.
Eridrus 10y ago
I think there need to be a compromise between the desire to let people work in their field and knowledge to spread and for companies to not just invest in new technology, but also not locate themselves in jurisdictions where they can enforce strict non-competes. Some of our goals are in conflict, and the answer is not always to come down on the side of one of these goals, but seek some compromise that tries to get the best of both worlds. But this case seems much closer to a clear case of theft, rather than corporate legal overreach.
rhino369 10y ago
This is why other states allow non-competes. First, don't take documents, prototypes etc. That will always get you in trouble. Second, anything publicly known is fair game. Third, follow nda's strictly. But California does have trade secrets that only exist in your mind. If you leave a company and immediately start a direct competitor you'll always be vulnerable to a trade secret allegation. You just have to judge whether they'll actually come after you. I'd recommend documenting your development practices to show you are doing your own work. But for a small company, just getting sued is going to cost half a million in legal fees. If you are an employee at a competitor, in would never write or say anything about how your old company did it. If you know how to do it well, that's arguably just a skill you have. There is no clear answer.

by yeukhon 10y ago

HappyTypist 10y ago

There is a difference between applying existing field knowledge, and downloading tens of thousands of design documents from a server you normally did not access.

blurble 10y ago

You can probably reimplement (providing no patent infringement) but not steal. Same as if you built some kind of web app or other software.

EnFinlay 10y ago

Best practices !== detailed designs Best practices are not 9.7 gigs of data, designs, and calculations. Edit: I am assuming that the 9.7 gigs was data, designs and calculations. Could have been the best cat pictures ever. I just don't know.

yeukhon 10y ago
But what about knowing how to implement the algorithm? Even something like implementing a dashboard for SRE/DevOps, I can rebuild it given enough time again.
- Qworg 10y ago
  The key statement is "given enough time". Innovation keeps moving; you're falling behind, even as you're trying to re-implement something you've done before.
tonyedgecombe 10y ago
From what the article says it sounds like they should go after Levandowski as well.

jonknee 10y ago

Don't take the jewels with you.

alok-g 10y ago

>> how can I prevent me from using that knowledge at another company You are expected to distinguish between public-domain knowledge and company-confidential information. Public-domain knowledge includes knowledge that you can (legally) obtain without being a part of the company, that you had from before you joined the company (without being under an NDA), that the company chooses to disclose to the public itself like by publishing papers, etc. At a new company, you can as such freely describe published patents (i.e., those accessible publicly, whether approved yet or not) from the previous company, however, you or your new company are not expected to be violating any approved patents. It generally helps to not even disclose those inventions at the new company. "Best practices" are generally not confidential information belonging to a company, though that could theoretically be if they involve patentable inventions or trade secrets. Likewise, you are not expected to be taking out any documents on these best practices subject to copyrights.

ghaff 10y ago

As others have said, this case seems to go way beyond "best practices." However, in the more general case, it probably depends in part on what sort of agreements you've signed. It's also one of the reasons why non-competes do exist and are enforced in many places. As you suggest, if you're a project lead for $FOO technology at Company A and you jump to Company B which wants to get in the $FOO business, the reality is that you're being hired only because you're familiar with what Company A is doing and has learned about $FOO. You may not hold a meeting and do a brain dump of everything you know about what you learned while at Company A (which might well violate employment contracts and would generally be unethical) but you'll absolutely be transferring knowledge. Of course, this happens all the time at some level when people move between companies.

Eridrus 10y ago

I think there need to be a compromise between the desire to let people work in their field and knowledge to spread and for companies to not just invest in new technology, but also not locate themselves in jurisdictions where they can enforce strict non-competes. Some of our goals are in conflict, and the answer is not always to come down on the side of one of these goals, but seek some compromise that tries to get the best of both worlds. But this case seems much closer to a clear case of theft, rather than corporate legal overreach.

rhino369 10y ago

This is why other states allow non-competes. First, don't take documents, prototypes etc. That will always get you in trouble. Second, anything publicly known is fair game. Third, follow nda's strictly. But California does have trade secrets that only exist in your mind. If you leave a company and immediately start a direct competitor you'll always be vulnerable to a trade secret allegation. You just have to judge whether they'll actually come after you. I'd recommend documenting your development practices to show you are doing your own work. But for a small company, just getting sued is going to cost half a million in legal fees. If you are an employee at a competitor, in would never write or say anything about how your old company did it. If you know how to do it well, that's arguably just a skill you have. There is no clear answer.