4 ms·

Your example seems a little contrived. Obviously the formula for Coca Cola isn't the best mode for a vacuum cleaner. My point was that if their trade secret is

Your example seems a little contrived. Obviously the formula for Coca Cola isn't the best mode for a vacuum cleaner. My point was that if their trade secret is also the best mode for the patent, then seemingly that puts them at risk for violating the best mode requirement and having their patents revoked, depending on when they were filed.

jacquesm 10y ago
It's not as if a patent will contain the full implementation details and of course corporations will use whatever tools we give them to protect their business interests and if that means leaving out a bunch of numbers from a patent application if the application will stand on it's own merits then you will see them do so. Patent law is not always the most intuitive thing and it works in ways that tech people usually do not readily comprehend because to them many things are 'obvious' that are not obvious to a patent examiner or someone 'skilled in the art'. And many times the software people are right (especially when it comes to software), and just as many times they are wrong or simply confused by the jargon surrounding patents. The 'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all, you either have something patentable, or you do not. If it stands the test of time (other paying their license fees, you winning court cases against parties infringing) then it was a strong patent. If you come up with a better mode later on that's fine and need not be disclosed. Whether or not a patent was the very best patent that you could have taken out is - as far as I know - not of any material impact to your chances of winning such cases. But what I do know is this: in some places breaking NDA's and spreading trade secrets around is a very dumb thing to do so if Google can make that claim stick the other party has a serious extra problem. The patents will be dealt with on their own, regardless of any 'modes'. Ideally this should all be disclosed, including future improvements but it's been a long time since patents were used for their original intended purpose anyway, these days it is probably best to think of them as weaponized IP.
- MereInterest 10y ago
  >It's not as if a patent will contain the full implementation details Forgive me for my ignorance, but isn't this exactly what a patent is intended for? An inventor discloses how the invention works, and is given a monopoly in exchange. If the patent doesn't give the details of how something works, then why should society pay the inventor for it by granting a monopoly over it?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Have a look at your typical modern patent application (a granted one) and see if you can rebuild the apparatus based on what is disclosed. Yes, in theory all the (critical) details are there but in practice this only works in simpler, for instance mostly mechanical patents. Patents that are broader, for instance to patent some principle may give an illustration and enough info that if you're skilled in the art that you may re-implement it but you're definitely not going to get working schematics and blueprints to work off. The situation is a bit better than with most scientific papers but not that much better.
  - lstyls 10y ago
    As an existence proof: the infamous apple "rounded corners" patent[0] that was granted in 2012 is based entirely on design merits. There is nothing in the patent about details of manufacture from what I can tell. IANAL. [0]: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1701443/USD670286S1.pdf http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1701443/USD670286S1.pdf
    - mcbits 10y ago
      That's a design patent, an entirely different class of patents.
- deelowe 10y ago
  There is/was laws about not fully disclosing everything when filing a patent. The whole point of the system (originally at least) was to encourage sharing ideas by granting inventors limited exclusivity. That said, I think some of the "best mode" of operation provisions were stripped recently.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    That's because they are so easy to get around anyway. Who says you even knew about that 'best mode' when you filed and without a compulsion to disclose later improvements the patent would stand.
- tclAmockingbird 10y ago
  > The 'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all, you either have something patentable, or you do not Disclosing the best mode in the specification of an application is a requirement, pre-AIA and now: see MPEP 2165.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    That has a critical and hard to prove caveat: that at the time of the filing it was known what that 'best mode' was. And since parameters (such as the ones under discussion) are subject to change that could be very difficult, it involves the 'state of mind of the inventor at the time of filing'. So, since 2012 this is now a requirement. I've found two examples of this successfully used in litigation, they are referenced here: https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2165.html https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2165.html Bottom of the page, neither of those come close to Google not disclosing certain parameters.
    - tclAmockingbird 10y ago
      > So, since 2012 this is now a requirement. It was a requirement before the Leahy-Smith America Invents Act, which is what is meant by "pre-AIA". You stated that "'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all" which was incorrect pre-AIA and remains incorrect in the AIA era. Disclosure of best mode remains a statutory requirement, even though it now lacks enforcement. Your citation is of MPEP 2165, which is what I had referenced earlier. Thank you for sharing a direct link for others to review.

jacquesm 10y ago

It's not as if a patent will contain the full implementation details and of course corporations will use whatever tools we give them to protect their business interests and if that means leaving out a bunch of numbers from a patent application if the application will stand on it's own merits then you will see them do so. Patent law is not always the most intuitive thing and it works in ways that tech people usually do not readily comprehend because to them many things are 'obvious' that are not obvious to a patent examiner or someone 'skilled in the art'. And many times the software people are right (especially when it comes to software), and just as many times they are wrong or simply confused by the jargon surrounding patents. The 'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all, you either have something patentable, or you do not. If it stands the test of time (other paying their license fees, you winning court cases against parties infringing) then it was a strong patent. If you come up with a better mode later on that's fine and need not be disclosed. Whether or not a patent was the very best patent that you could have taken out is - as far as I know - not of any material impact to your chances of winning such cases. But what I do know is this: in some places breaking NDA's and spreading trade secrets around is a very dumb thing to do so if Google can make that claim stick the other party has a serious extra problem. The patents will be dealt with on their own, regardless of any 'modes'. Ideally this should all be disclosed, including future improvements but it's been a long time since patents were used for their original intended purpose anyway, these days it is probably best to think of them as weaponized IP.

MereInterest 10y ago
>It's not as if a patent will contain the full implementation details Forgive me for my ignorance, but isn't this exactly what a patent is intended for? An inventor discloses how the invention works, and is given a monopoly in exchange. If the patent doesn't give the details of how something works, then why should society pay the inventor for it by granting a monopoly over it?
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Have a look at your typical modern patent application (a granted one) and see if you can rebuild the apparatus based on what is disclosed. Yes, in theory all the (critical) details are there but in practice this only works in simpler, for instance mostly mechanical patents. Patents that are broader, for instance to patent some principle may give an illustration and enough info that if you're skilled in the art that you may re-implement it but you're definitely not going to get working schematics and blueprints to work off. The situation is a bit better than with most scientific papers but not that much better.
- lstyls 10y ago
  As an existence proof: the infamous apple "rounded corners" patent[0] that was granted in 2012 is based entirely on design merits. There is nothing in the patent about details of manufacture from what I can tell. IANAL. [0]: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1701443/USD670286S1.pdf http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1701443/USD670286S1.pdf
  - mcbits 10y ago
    That's a design patent, an entirely different class of patents.
deelowe 10y ago
There is/was laws about not fully disclosing everything when filing a patent. The whole point of the system (originally at least) was to encourage sharing ideas by granting inventors limited exclusivity. That said, I think some of the "best mode" of operation provisions were stripped recently.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That's because they are so easy to get around anyway. Who says you even knew about that 'best mode' when you filed and without a compulsion to disclose later improvements the patent would stand.
tclAmockingbird 10y ago
> The 'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all, you either have something patentable, or you do not Disclosing the best mode in the specification of an application is a requirement, pre-AIA and now: see MPEP 2165.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That has a critical and hard to prove caveat: that at the time of the filing it was known what that 'best mode' was. And since parameters (such as the ones under discussion) are subject to change that could be very difficult, it involves the 'state of mind of the inventor at the time of filing'. So, since 2012 this is now a requirement. I've found two examples of this successfully used in litigation, they are referenced here: https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2165.html https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2165.html Bottom of the page, neither of those come close to Google not disclosing certain parameters.
  - tclAmockingbird 10y ago
    > So, since 2012 this is now a requirement. It was a requirement before the Leahy-Smith America Invents Act, which is what is meant by "pre-AIA". You stated that "'best mode' is not a requirement for a patent at all" which was incorrect pre-AIA and remains incorrect in the AIA era. Disclosure of best mode remains a statutory requirement, even though it now lacks enforcement. Your citation is of MPEP 2165, which is what I had referenced earlier. Thank you for sharing a direct link for others to review.