4 ms·

Any lawyers know what the likely time frame is on this for some sort of resolution? This doesn't really seem like much of a development to an outsider. Just m

Any lawyers know what the likely time frame is on this for some sort of resolution? This doesn't really seem like much of a development to an outsider. Just more added to the pile.

DannyBee 10y ago
(Note: I'm a lawyer, i work for Google, but not in any interesting capacity here. Being part of Google, and not waymo, i don't even have any idea about anything here :P) Define "resolution". The preliminary injunction will get ruled on fairly quickly (months most likely). You should expect either side to attempt an appeal of preliminary injunction as well (unlike most non-final judgements, in federal court, you can appeal preliminary injunctions) The actual case will take years to resolve, not counting appeals, etc. Mark lemley crunched the data: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919 Note: Time to resolution includes settlement. So time to resolution is average of 1.28 years in n.d. cal, because most things settle. Time to trial if it goes to trial, in n.d. cal, is 2.92 years So a while if it goes to trial :)
- chrisper 10y ago
  What does a lawyer do on a daily basis at a tech company?
  - hkmurakami 10y ago
    "open source lawyer" in his profile, so presumably the legalities of both open sourcing their own work as well as properly using oss in the wild.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      I updated it, i never bothered changing it over the years. But yes, that, as well as M&A, advice about lawsuits involving open source, etc. That's just the lawyer side though. I've never been a lawyer-only.
      - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
        I'm an engineer and been thinking about Picking up a law degree. Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? What would you do differently? Also at google,btw.
        DannyBee 10y ago
        "I'm an engineer and been thinking about Picking up a law degree. Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? What would you do differently? What is your goal in doing so?
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    Lawyer is an interesting word. Loaded, in fact to most engineers. I used to run open source licensing while helping to build code.google.com (I helped write Subversion back in the day, and built significant parts of code.google.com). These days, I still help out running open source licensing and compliance at a high level, but have just about handed all of it off to very good people who take care of it. I still get involved in M&A, policy issues, large or complex fires, etc. Even that is slowing down as people become more and more experienced. Which is great[1] Now I spend most of my time running the C++ language teams (compiler/toolchains/core libraries/etc). So, lawyer wise, these days, if they directly ask me for help, usually it means something has gone wrong. [1] Truthfully, there are not enough really good open source lawyer types who actually understand the interplay of actual engineering and open source really well. The more i can help create, the better.
    - rosser 10y ago
      That path — pursuing a JD toward the end of helping open source projects — has appealed very strongly to me on and off over many years, but I've always been dubious it's something sustainable. Neither law school, nor living in areas where you'd probably need to, in order to have access to the most relevant courts and highest densities of potential clients are cheap. I'm sure the occasional settlement wrung out of non-compliant companies or whatever would help, but I'm also pretty sure "occasional" is very much the operative word there. I'm really glad to hear it's more of a thing than I'd thought it was, though I will admit to some skepticism that working for someone like Google or whomever wouldn't somehow subtly taint one's motivations and efforts towards their goals, rather than what's best for Open Source writ large. Then again, I was recently reminded of the Chade-Meng Tan quote about doing "what's best for the world," and then "wait[ing] to get fired," so maybe my cynicism isn't entirely warranted here, at least in the specific.
      - DannyBee 10y ago
        What do you want to help them with, precisely? Most open source legal work is in companies. "Neither law school, nor living in areas where you'd probably need to, in order to have access to the most relevant courts and highest densities of potential clients are cheap. " It's definitely not worth it for the money. I did it, originally, because it became clear to me at a young age that patents were going to destroy the software industry, and that the average engineer was just going to sit around and complain on usenet (now hacker news i guess) about it :P When i joined google, i actually spent a long ass time fighting for patent reform, too. But it got too lonely (google was often the only one fighting the good fight and the other side gets very good at smearing, etc), and after many years, you also have to survive. But the second you do, you become the villain. People want absolutes. "I'm sure the occasional settlement wrung out of non-compliant companies or whatever would help, but I'm also pretty sure "occasional" is very much the operative word there. " The problem here is that the damages are not likely to pay for the lawsuit in most cases. Sad, but true. "I'm really glad to hear it's more of a thing than I'd thought it was, though I will admit to some skepticism that working for someone like Google or whomever wouldn't somehow subtly taint one's motivations and efforts towards their goals, rather than what's best for Open Source writ large. " Actually, watching and participating in the politics of GCC did that long before i ever joined google :P. The truth is always in between. Nobody is completely altruistic, nobody is completely self-interested. At the same time, when i train new googlers, we explicitly tell them we comply with licenses mainly because it's the right damn thing to do. And we believe it.
  - aphextron 10y ago
    >What does a lawyer do on a daily basis at a tech company? Come up with new and exciting ways of saying "No" to product managers.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      Only bad lawyers do that, and only bad engineers abdicate their authority and let them. Any good thing at a tech company is a collaboration between various parts (product, eng, etc). The second you let someone else run everything, you lose, and the product loses.
- unityByFreedom 10y ago
  Cool thanks for your reply! You seem to have covered all the bases. Sounds like this will settle in a year or so.
- rhino369 10y ago
  You really shouldn't be talking about this publically.
  - unityByFreedom 10y ago
    Publically? Gonna guess YANAL
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    I appreciate your concern. But in this case, i made very clear i'm not speaking for literally anyone, and i'm not even part of the company involved! In fact, i made clear i'm not even working for legal.

Any lawyers know what the likely time frame is on this for some sort of resolution? This doesn't really seem like much of a development to an outsider. Just more added to the pile.

DannyBee 10y ago

(Note: I'm a lawyer, i work for Google, but not in any interesting capacity here. Being part of Google, and not waymo, i don't even have any idea about anything here :P) Define "resolution". The preliminary injunction will get ruled on fairly quickly (months most likely). You should expect either side to attempt an appeal of preliminary injunction as well (unlike most non-final judgements, in federal court, you can appeal preliminary injunctions) The actual case will take years to resolve, not counting appeals, etc. Mark lemley crunched the data: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1597919 Note: Time to resolution includes settlement. So time to resolution is average of 1.28 years in n.d. cal, because most things settle. Time to trial if it goes to trial, in n.d. cal, is 2.92 years So a while if it goes to trial :)

chrisper 10y ago
What does a lawyer do on a daily basis at a tech company?
- hkmurakami 10y ago
  "open source lawyer" in his profile, so presumably the legalities of both open sourcing their own work as well as properly using oss in the wild.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    I updated it, i never bothered changing it over the years. But yes, that, as well as M&A, advice about lawsuits involving open source, etc. That's just the lawyer side though. I've never been a lawyer-only.
    - MarkPNeyer 10y ago
      I'm an engineer and been thinking about Picking up a law degree. Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? What would you do differently? Also at google,btw.
      - DannyBee 10y ago
        "I'm an engineer and been thinking about Picking up a law degree. Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? What would you do differently? What is your goal in doing so?
- DannyBee 10y ago
  Lawyer is an interesting word. Loaded, in fact to most engineers. I used to run open source licensing while helping to build code.google.com (I helped write Subversion back in the day, and built significant parts of code.google.com). These days, I still help out running open source licensing and compliance at a high level, but have just about handed all of it off to very good people who take care of it. I still get involved in M&A, policy issues, large or complex fires, etc. Even that is slowing down as people become more and more experienced. Which is great[1] Now I spend most of my time running the C++ language teams (compiler/toolchains/core libraries/etc). So, lawyer wise, these days, if they directly ask me for help, usually it means something has gone wrong. [1] Truthfully, there are not enough really good open source lawyer types who actually understand the interplay of actual engineering and open source really well. The more i can help create, the better.
  - rosser 10y ago
    That path — pursuing a JD toward the end of helping open source projects — has appealed very strongly to me on and off over many years, but I've always been dubious it's something sustainable. Neither law school, nor living in areas where you'd probably need to, in order to have access to the most relevant courts and highest densities of potential clients are cheap. I'm sure the occasional settlement wrung out of non-compliant companies or whatever would help, but I'm also pretty sure "occasional" is very much the operative word there. I'm really glad to hear it's more of a thing than I'd thought it was, though I will admit to some skepticism that working for someone like Google or whomever wouldn't somehow subtly taint one's motivations and efforts towards their goals, rather than what's best for Open Source writ large. Then again, I was recently reminded of the Chade-Meng Tan quote about doing "what's best for the world," and then "wait[ing] to get fired," so maybe my cynicism isn't entirely warranted here, at least in the specific.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      What do you want to help them with, precisely? Most open source legal work is in companies. "Neither law school, nor living in areas where you'd probably need to, in order to have access to the most relevant courts and highest densities of potential clients are cheap. " It's definitely not worth it for the money. I did it, originally, because it became clear to me at a young age that patents were going to destroy the software industry, and that the average engineer was just going to sit around and complain on usenet (now hacker news i guess) about it :P When i joined google, i actually spent a long ass time fighting for patent reform, too. But it got too lonely (google was often the only one fighting the good fight and the other side gets very good at smearing, etc), and after many years, you also have to survive. But the second you do, you become the villain. People want absolutes. "I'm sure the occasional settlement wrung out of non-compliant companies or whatever would help, but I'm also pretty sure "occasional" is very much the operative word there. " The problem here is that the damages are not likely to pay for the lawsuit in most cases. Sad, but true. "I'm really glad to hear it's more of a thing than I'd thought it was, though I will admit to some skepticism that working for someone like Google or whomever wouldn't somehow subtly taint one's motivations and efforts towards their goals, rather than what's best for Open Source writ large. " Actually, watching and participating in the politics of GCC did that long before i ever joined google :P. The truth is always in between. Nobody is completely altruistic, nobody is completely self-interested. At the same time, when i train new googlers, we explicitly tell them we comply with licenses mainly because it's the right damn thing to do. And we believe it.
- aphextron 10y ago
  >What does a lawyer do on a daily basis at a tech company? Come up with new and exciting ways of saying "No" to product managers.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    Only bad lawyers do that, and only bad engineers abdicate their authority and let them. Any good thing at a tech company is a collaboration between various parts (product, eng, etc). The second you let someone else run everything, you lose, and the product loses.
unityByFreedom 10y ago
Cool thanks for your reply! You seem to have covered all the bases. Sounds like this will settle in a year or so.
rhino369 10y ago
You really shouldn't be talking about this publically.
- unityByFreedom 10y ago
  Publically? Gonna guess YANAL
- DannyBee 10y ago
  I appreciate your concern. But in this case, i made very clear i'm not speaking for literally anyone, and i'm not even part of the company involved! In fact, i made clear i'm not even working for legal.