5 ms·

Articles like this are kind of frustrating, for the implication that $250k is standard for a few years experience, and you can easily get it with less. That's

Articles like this are kind of frustrating, for the implication that $250k is standard for a few years experience, and you can easily get it with less. That's really not been my experience. Not everyone - not most people even - work at Google. Related question - at a mid-stage startup (say 100 employees), how does option/stock compensation work? Do they regularly give you more (like big companies do) or are the options associated with signing all you get (and their growth is how they're an ongoing part of compensation)?

n0us 10y ago
Yeah but this is about highest pay, which by definition most people will not make.
- lebanon_tn 10y ago
  Not by definition only if we are talking about percentages.
ryandrake 10y ago
> Do they regularly give you more (like big companies do) or are the options associated with signing all you get (and their growth is how they're an ongoing part of compensation)? Most places I've seen give you one dump at sign-on and that's all you get ever. I understand some companies refresh you every so often.
- JimboOmega 10y ago
  I ask because when you are one of the first ~20 employees you get a meaningful percentage, like say 0.1%. In that case the value goes up with the value of the company. .1% of a company that's worth 200M is $200k, which vesting over 4 years is... $50k (obviously strike price, company actually still existing, etc, are factors) When you work at a big company like Google, you get a regular amount of equity compensation that translates directly (via public markets) into dollars, say $50k, every year. But if you join mid stage... you usually get a number of options which translates to a very small portion of the company. Like even if the company had a unicorn IPO, it might only be $10-$20k. I wonder if there's some kind of bridge that's typical between the startup state (where there's a sizable option pool to hand out) and the Post IPO state (where RSUs are handed out as a big chunk of compensation)?
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    I think the answer to all your scenarios is: It depends on the company. Some companies (regardless of size) give refreshes, some don't. For those that do, some do it discretionary based on performance, some just hand a little to everyone. Some companies give options, some companies give stock. Some companies give "thanks for working here you're so great".
mccolin 10y ago
Agreed. "Not exceptional in any manner" seems like a bit of an out-of-whack analysis of a $250K engineering salary at Google.
- plandis 10y ago
  Perhaps "your average Googler" with X years of experience would be a better description. That seems to make sense. It's a like 25% more than I make at AMZN (in cheaper Seattle) with almost 4 years of experience.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    Didn't realize AMZN paid that well. Every ex-amazoner I know left because Amazon was a lot lower than industry. As soon as they could jump ship, they did.
alistairSH 10y ago
I took the post to mean $250k was the low end of the range for highly compensated programmers. Something more like $150k or $180k is probably a more realistic mid-career average compensation (with salary somewhat less than that, in the USA). Complicating the discussion is HN skews to the high end of the range. Not only is it very SV-centric, the type of programmers who post here appear to be atypical (high performing, entrepreneurial, etc).
vostok 10y ago
These articles are correct and $250k is not exceptional for a few years of experience. They are talking about total compensation and not salary. If you think this is exceptional then you owe it to yourself to respond to some of those LinkedIn messages. And, no, this kind of pay is not restricted to NY/SF/SV/Seattle.
- the_cyber_pass 10y ago
  Look at /r/programming, do you think these people are pulling $250k. They are closer to the average. If you think $250k is normal you're in an exceptional bubble.
  - vostok 10y ago
    I can get median pay data from the BLS [1] without visiting the cesspool that is reddit. The median software developer is shockingly bad. Some developers will claim to be 4+ sigma talent, but you don't need to be one of them to make $250k. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
    - the_cyber_pass 10y ago
      Are you really willing to tell me that that the average engineer in 3-6 years can pull in $250k? Your own source says the median is $100,690. How long do you think those people have been working in the industry? Are they all just fresh out of college? So if these people all just work 3-6 years should I expect a bunch of multimillionaires? Can the industry support $250k salaries for a wider amount of the population?
      - vostok 10y ago
        > Are you really willing to tell me that that the average engineer in 3-6 years can pull in $250k? I just sent you a link saying that the average engineer makes $100k. I am claiming that (1) the average developer is awful and (2) you can make that much and more if you're not awful. > So if these people all just work 3-6 years should I expect a bunch of multimillionaires? You're not going to be a multimillionaire if you make $250k for 6 years.
xyzzy4 10y ago
My sister in law is a software engineer in India, and she makes about $450 per month, which is $5400 per year. She also often has to work weekends.
- vostok 10y ago
  India has huge inequality among software engineers. While $5400 is possible, but 35 lpa (and more), about 10x that number, is also possible for someone who is not exceptional.
  - xyzzy4 10y ago
    She has just accepted a new job that'll start soon, so she'll hopefully make some more. She is requesting 4 lakhs per year (~$6000 dollars) but doesn't know if it'll be that yet.
  - areyousure 10y ago
    For anyone else who doesn't easily process abbreviations from Indian English, "LPA" stands for lakhs per annum. A lakh is 100,000 and the implied currency is INR = Indian rupee. As such, 35 lpa = 3.5 million INR/year ~ $52,600/year at present forex exchange rates (PPP value is another story).
NTDF9 10y ago
Most employees even in Google don't make $250k base. Most of bay area is littered with low-profile companies like Brocade, Broadcomm, McAfee, KLA-Tencor, Micron, Hortonworks, Arista etc. Most "senior" engineers in these companies don't make $150k base. Some guys just have a retarded view of what companies are paying. Outside the top 10 high-profile companies, most engineers in the bay are slaving away in low-mid 100ks

n0us 10y ago

Yeah but this is about highest pay, which by definition most people will not make.

lebanon_tn 10y ago
Not by definition only if we are talking about percentages.

ryandrake 10y ago

> Do they regularly give you more (like big companies do) or are the options associated with signing all you get (and their growth is how they're an ongoing part of compensation)? Most places I've seen give you one dump at sign-on and that's all you get ever. I understand some companies refresh you every so often.

JimboOmega 10y ago
I ask because when you are one of the first ~20 employees you get a meaningful percentage, like say 0.1%. In that case the value goes up with the value of the company. .1% of a company that's worth 200M is $200k, which vesting over 4 years is... $50k (obviously strike price, company actually still existing, etc, are factors) When you work at a big company like Google, you get a regular amount of equity compensation that translates directly (via public markets) into dollars, say $50k, every year. But if you join mid stage... you usually get a number of options which translates to a very small portion of the company. Like even if the company had a unicorn IPO, it might only be $10-$20k. I wonder if there's some kind of bridge that's typical between the startup state (where there's a sizable option pool to hand out) and the Post IPO state (where RSUs are handed out as a big chunk of compensation)?
- ryandrake 10y ago
  I think the answer to all your scenarios is: It depends on the company. Some companies (regardless of size) give refreshes, some don't. For those that do, some do it discretionary based on performance, some just hand a little to everyone. Some companies give options, some companies give stock. Some companies give "thanks for working here you're so great".

mccolin 10y ago

Agreed. "Not exceptional in any manner" seems like a bit of an out-of-whack analysis of a $250K engineering salary at Google.

plandis 10y ago
Perhaps "your average Googler" with X years of experience would be a better description. That seems to make sense. It's a like 25% more than I make at AMZN (in cheaper Seattle) with almost 4 years of experience.
- nojvek 10y ago
  Didn't realize AMZN paid that well. Every ex-amazoner I know left because Amazon was a lot lower than industry. As soon as they could jump ship, they did.

alistairSH 10y ago

I took the post to mean $250k was the low end of the range for highly compensated programmers. Something more like $150k or $180k is probably a more realistic mid-career average compensation (with salary somewhat less than that, in the USA). Complicating the discussion is HN skews to the high end of the range. Not only is it very SV-centric, the type of programmers who post here appear to be atypical (high performing, entrepreneurial, etc).

vostok 10y ago

These articles are correct and $250k is not exceptional for a few years of experience. They are talking about total compensation and not salary. If you think this is exceptional then you owe it to yourself to respond to some of those LinkedIn messages. And, no, this kind of pay is not restricted to NY/SF/SV/Seattle.

the_cyber_pass 10y ago
Look at /r/programming, do you think these people are pulling $250k. They are closer to the average. If you think $250k is normal you're in an exceptional bubble.
- vostok 10y ago
  I can get median pay data from the BLS [1] without visiting the cesspool that is reddit. The median software developer is shockingly bad. Some developers will claim to be 4+ sigma talent, but you don't need to be one of them to make $250k. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
  - the_cyber_pass 10y ago
    Are you really willing to tell me that that the average engineer in 3-6 years can pull in $250k? Your own source says the median is $100,690. How long do you think those people have been working in the industry? Are they all just fresh out of college? So if these people all just work 3-6 years should I expect a bunch of multimillionaires? Can the industry support $250k salaries for a wider amount of the population?
    - vostok 10y ago
      > Are you really willing to tell me that that the average engineer in 3-6 years can pull in $250k? I just sent you a link saying that the average engineer makes $100k. I am claiming that (1) the average developer is awful and (2) you can make that much and more if you're not awful. > So if these people all just work 3-6 years should I expect a bunch of multimillionaires? You're not going to be a multimillionaire if you make $250k for 6 years.

xyzzy4 10y ago

My sister in law is a software engineer in India, and she makes about $450 per month, which is $5400 per year. She also often has to work weekends.

vostok 10y ago
India has huge inequality among software engineers. While $5400 is possible, but 35 lpa (and more), about 10x that number, is also possible for someone who is not exceptional.
- xyzzy4 10y ago
  She has just accepted a new job that'll start soon, so she'll hopefully make some more. She is requesting 4 lakhs per year (~$6000 dollars) but doesn't know if it'll be that yet.
- areyousure 10y ago
  For anyone else who doesn't easily process abbreviations from Indian English, "LPA" stands for lakhs per annum. A lakh is 100,000 and the implied currency is INR = Indian rupee. As such, 35 lpa = 3.5 million INR/year ~ $52,600/year at present forex exchange rates (PPP value is another story).

NTDF9 10y ago

Most employees even in Google don't make $250k base. Most of bay area is littered with low-profile companies like Brocade, Broadcomm, McAfee, KLA-Tencor, Micron, Hortonworks, Arista etc. Most "senior" engineers in these companies don't make $150k base. Some guys just have a retarded view of what companies are paying. Outside the top 10 high-profile companies, most engineers in the bay are slaving away in low-mid 100ks