5 ms·

Engineers are the worst at this part of the game. They'll sign anything you put in front of them. At several of the places I've worked, I've been given crap boi

Engineers are the worst at this part of the game. They'll sign anything you put in front of them. At several of the places I've worked, I've been given crap boilerplate forms like that to sign. HR/hiring people will look at you like you're some kind of weirdo if you balk at any of it. Here are the reactions to my reluctance as I recall them. * One company wouldn't budge. Later, I got a better deal, but it was risky the way I went about it. * At another company, I just didn't sign it. They didn't stop me from starting work but when the omission was noticed they had an HR person pester me about it a few times. They eventually gave up. * At yet another place, I crossed out the parts I didn't like. They just kind of shrugged and said okay. At no time did I ever want anything unreasonable. I just didn't want all the things that I or my descendants designed/built/invented/helped-whatever to be assigned to ['company'] in perpetuity, etc. And I didn't want a contractual responsibility to come and defend patents in courts, or give depositions at my expense.

pc86 10y ago
> Engineers are the worst at this part of the game. They'll sign anything you put in front of them. The smart ones absolutely will not. Smart people absolutely will not do this, regardless of their profession.
- fao_ 10y ago
  But that's the ultimate cop-out. By sheer definition smart people will not do anything stupid. They are utterly incapable of doing stupid things, because then they wouldn't be smart. This is a wonderful tautology and a beautiful way of saying absolutely nothing.
  - jackmott 10y ago
    Once you internalize tautologies you see them eeeeeverywhere. sadly.
  - ReidZB 10y ago
    It's just a way of saying "doing X is stupid" without being blunt.
- fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
  I don't agree. I've worked with some very smart engineers and scientists who simply do not inform themselves about things that are outside their domain.
  - libertymcateer 10y ago
    > who simply do not inform themselves about things that are outside their domain. And hopefully have the self-awareness not to have strongly held opinions in these areas (at least without sufficient evidence). However, I find that all too often, this is not the case.
- lordCarbonFiber 10y ago
  That's a dangerous and reductive line of thinking. There are plenty of factors that can lead people to believe (correctly or no) that they don't have leverage in an employment negotiation. First job out of school, first job in the tech industry, family causing them to want to stay in an area without many other prospects, etc; NDAs are an employers way of leaning hard on the fact you need them a lot more than they need you.
libertymcateer 10y ago
There are lawyers who do this type of negotiation. > HR/hiring people will look at you like you're some kind of weirdo if you balk at any of it. Here are the reactions to my reluctance as I recall them. Right. Go over them. Your lawyer will talk to their lawyers, above the level of the HR people you would be talking to. > I didn't want a contractual responsibility to come and defend patents in courts, Which is a pretty reasonable requirement... > or give depositions at my expense. But that is not (or, rather, it can be in certain circumstances). A good lawyer will negotiate these things for you. You should try to find one who actually understands software a bit. They do exist. Disclaimer: I am not your lawyer. If you need a lawyer, you should get one.
- Trundle 10y ago
  >But that is not (or, rather, it can be in certain circumstances) If they're 3/3 with dodging it, what makes it unreasonable? Have they just been lucky so far?
  - libertymcateer 10y ago
    Who is dodging what now? (Not trying to be facetious -forgive me, I'm just not really following.)
- fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
  When I was dropping out of college because I'd run out of money, I didn't have money to hire an attorney to negotiate an entry level tech/engineering job for me. >Which is a pretty reasonable requirement... You omitted the last part. I think it's pretty unreasonable to want that kind of service gratis.
waffle_ss 10y ago
I crossed out all the non-compete clauses on the contract I signed for my last job and they were fine with it. It's really no different than negotiating on salary or anything else - you just have to know your own value and the current job market climate. And obviously not being afraid of having a frank discussion about it - perhaps a lot of devs are non-confrontational in that way.
BlackjackCF 10y ago
Yup. Often times it's not a matter of whether or not they're "smart" or "self-aware", like I see being argued. It's just a matter of not feeling confident enough to demand more. This holds especially true for engineers I've met in the games industry. The games industry treats their engineers so poorly in terms of compensation that often when I encourage my friends in the games industry to demand more, they're often afraid to because they believe they'll have their job offer rescinded for demanding more.

pc86 10y ago

> Engineers are the worst at this part of the game. They'll sign anything you put in front of them. The smart ones absolutely will not. Smart people absolutely will not do this, regardless of their profession.

fao_ 10y ago
But that's the ultimate cop-out. By sheer definition smart people will not do anything stupid. They are utterly incapable of doing stupid things, because then they wouldn't be smart. This is a wonderful tautology and a beautiful way of saying absolutely nothing.
- jackmott 10y ago
  Once you internalize tautologies you see them eeeeeverywhere. sadly.
- ReidZB 10y ago
  It's just a way of saying "doing X is stupid" without being blunt.
fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
I don't agree. I've worked with some very smart engineers and scientists who simply do not inform themselves about things that are outside their domain.
- libertymcateer 10y ago
  > who simply do not inform themselves about things that are outside their domain. And hopefully have the self-awareness not to have strongly held opinions in these areas (at least without sufficient evidence). However, I find that all too often, this is not the case.
lordCarbonFiber 10y ago
That's a dangerous and reductive line of thinking. There are plenty of factors that can lead people to believe (correctly or no) that they don't have leverage in an employment negotiation. First job out of school, first job in the tech industry, family causing them to want to stay in an area without many other prospects, etc; NDAs are an employers way of leaning hard on the fact you need them a lot more than they need you.

libertymcateer 10y ago

There are lawyers who do this type of negotiation. > HR/hiring people will look at you like you're some kind of weirdo if you balk at any of it. Here are the reactions to my reluctance as I recall them. Right. Go over them. Your lawyer will talk to their lawyers, above the level of the HR people you would be talking to. > I didn't want a contractual responsibility to come and defend patents in courts, Which is a pretty reasonable requirement... > or give depositions at my expense. But that is not (or, rather, it can be in certain circumstances). A good lawyer will negotiate these things for you. You should try to find one who actually understands software a bit. They do exist. Disclaimer: I am not your lawyer. If you need a lawyer, you should get one.

Trundle 10y ago
>But that is not (or, rather, it can be in certain circumstances) If they're 3/3 with dodging it, what makes it unreasonable? Have they just been lucky so far?
- libertymcateer 10y ago
  Who is dodging what now? (Not trying to be facetious -forgive me, I'm just not really following.)
fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
When I was dropping out of college because I'd run out of money, I didn't have money to hire an attorney to negotiate an entry level tech/engineering job for me. >Which is a pretty reasonable requirement... You omitted the last part. I think it's pretty unreasonable to want that kind of service gratis.

waffle_ss 10y ago

I crossed out all the non-compete clauses on the contract I signed for my last job and they were fine with it. It's really no different than negotiating on salary or anything else - you just have to know your own value and the current job market climate. And obviously not being afraid of having a frank discussion about it - perhaps a lot of devs are non-confrontational in that way.

BlackjackCF 10y ago

Yup. Often times it's not a matter of whether or not they're "smart" or "self-aware", like I see being argued. It's just a matter of not feeling confident enough to demand more. This holds especially true for engineers I've met in the games industry. The games industry treats their engineers so poorly in terms of compensation that often when I encourage my friends in the games industry to demand more, they're often afraid to because they believe they'll have their job offer rescinded for demanding more.