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Oh believe me, I did try. Moved in with a business cofounder and started working on an idea. We squabbled over a lot of things before I realized that it was a m

Oh believe me, I did try. Moved in with a business cofounder and started working on an idea. We squabbled over a lot of things before I realized that it was a marriage and not a transaction, and what I wanted was more transactional. So I bailed and got a job. I still talk with the guy and fill out estimates for his potential clients whenever he wants. We'll eventually hack out a working professional relationship and start a company together. The fact of the matter is that personal life matters more to me than professional life. I think a lot of people wind up using professional accolades to make up for things they can't get in their personal life. Maybe that's not you, but for me, working on my relationships and my emotional health is 100x more important than a big pile of money and influence ever will. Maybe your answer to this is to "just work harder." To that I just have to say, 'absolutely not'.

sixstringtheory 10y ago
It doesn't sound like you were working on a side project there, and even then, you have one bad experience and throw your hands up? You can have a rewarding personal life and still learn while building something on the side, and show it to the world. But, I think you have to be prepared to appreciate the process without expectation of payoff. Just my observation, your comments read like there is a preoccupation with the latter.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  There's no point in shipping unless you're gunning for a payoff. Sure, if you want to find meaning in giving total random strangers things that they want you to give them, knock yourself out.
  - deepaksurti 10y ago
    >> There's no point in shipping There is a lot of point in shipping, and as somebody else pointed out that something made in 2 hours can also be shipped. What shipping has taught me is to really really restrict the scope, the un-essentials. That in turn has helped in my day job as well, to negotiate correctly on milestones, feature scope etc helping me in staying sane and productive! >> strangers things that they want you to give them I don't know if you mean OSS users by this but if yes, then where are these users pestering the authors to give them something, they just lap it up if it is useful when the author gives it to them.
  - sixstringtheory 10y ago
    I should be so lucky to have people demanding anything from any of my side projects :D
cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
> Maybe your answer to this is to "just work harder." To that I just have to say, 'absolutely not'. I said "ship" it. not work harder. You can even ship something you built in a couple of hours. It IS ok to not ship every single project you work on, but it is not ok to be proud of how you never ship. Personally in terms of "learning" I learned 90% of what I have learned AFTER shipping. You think you are learning but you are only scratching the surface.
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  It still takes time. Time spent away from your loved ones, away from your friends, away from doing the things you really want to do with your time. It's great that you find meaning in learning from the market. But the only love the market can really give you is colored green.
  - at-fates-hands 10y ago
    As someone who started a side business with the thought of doing both that and my normal 9-5 until my side business took off, everything you've said in all your responses is completely accurate. I found out that after landing six clients and taking on a ton of business, myself and my partner (who was also working a full-time job too) got in and suddenly my personal life vanished. Sure, the money was rolling in, but all of my relationships suffered, I didn't have time to do the things I really wanted to do. Worse yet? I felt like all my clients would want the latest and greatest web technologies and applications to make their businesses run smoother and easier to manage. Nope. They just bickered with me and it was a series of struggles to get anything done. Twelve iterations of design and several "come to Jesus" meetings couldn't stop the non-stop changes for one client. Another client was stuck in a paper and pen world and didn't want to automate or change anything about the one process that hindered their business. Another wanted web design from 1995. It was maddening. After a year, I fired three of my clients, finished two of the sites and cut those clients loose and then kept the only one that was a joy to work with. My life returned to normal, but it made me realize exactly what you said. My LIFE is more important than a pile of money. Maintaining my relationships with my family and friends should be more important.
the_overseer 10y ago
A B C - Always Be Closing! In this case, always be shipping. I see a lot of resentment around here against the fact that you developers are always seen as lowly peons by managers. And here we have the perfect example why: this guy doesn't care about shipping, he only care about going into his little world and doing what he wants. This type of mentality leads to what we managers call 'coder mentality'. Programmers that see themselves as programmers instead of problem solvers. You need to get out of your head and realize that coding is just a tool to solve a problem. It's not something that you do just because. It makes no sense. Coding in of itself is useless. Problem solving though, is very useful. Some problems require only coding, some problems require some coding and other things, and other problems require no coding at all in order to be solved. You should always seek to solve problems that you and others have. Don't just go into your world and start coding. That will not make you a better programmer. We managers hate the 'coder' because he just wants to code and not solve business problems. That is why you are treated the way you are treated and will always command less respect than others. By the way, when things are down and we have to let people go, who do you think we let go first: the guy who shows interest in the business and how to make work better and cut costs, or the guy who just puts headphones on and starts coding surrounded by red bulls? I'll leave you with the now famouse Glengarry Glen Ross Scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XW6P0tiVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XW6P0tiVc Always be shipping! You don't ship, you don't exist. When I hire I always ask about shipped products specifically. The things that didn't ship don't exist. I consider that wasted time. One shipped product means more than 1000 personal projects that didn't ship, no matter how much you think you learnt.

sixstringtheory 10y ago

It doesn't sound like you were working on a side project there, and even then, you have one bad experience and throw your hands up? You can have a rewarding personal life and still learn while building something on the side, and show it to the world. But, I think you have to be prepared to appreciate the process without expectation of payoff. Just my observation, your comments read like there is a preoccupation with the latter.

vinceguidry 10y ago
There's no point in shipping unless you're gunning for a payoff. Sure, if you want to find meaning in giving total random strangers things that they want you to give them, knock yourself out.
- deepaksurti 10y ago
  >> There's no point in shipping There is a lot of point in shipping, and as somebody else pointed out that something made in 2 hours can also be shipped. What shipping has taught me is to really really restrict the scope, the un-essentials. That in turn has helped in my day job as well, to negotiate correctly on milestones, feature scope etc helping me in staying sane and productive! >> strangers things that they want you to give them I don't know if you mean OSS users by this but if yes, then where are these users pestering the authors to give them something, they just lap it up if it is useful when the author gives it to them.
- sixstringtheory 10y ago
  I should be so lucky to have people demanding anything from any of my side projects :D

cocktailpeanuts 10y ago

> Maybe your answer to this is to "just work harder." To that I just have to say, 'absolutely not'. I said "ship" it. not work harder. You can even ship something you built in a couple of hours. It IS ok to not ship every single project you work on, but it is not ok to be proud of how you never ship. Personally in terms of "learning" I learned 90% of what I have learned AFTER shipping. You think you are learning but you are only scratching the surface.

vinceguidry 10y ago
It still takes time. Time spent away from your loved ones, away from your friends, away from doing the things you really want to do with your time. It's great that you find meaning in learning from the market. But the only love the market can really give you is colored green.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  As someone who started a side business with the thought of doing both that and my normal 9-5 until my side business took off, everything you've said in all your responses is completely accurate. I found out that after landing six clients and taking on a ton of business, myself and my partner (who was also working a full-time job too) got in and suddenly my personal life vanished. Sure, the money was rolling in, but all of my relationships suffered, I didn't have time to do the things I really wanted to do. Worse yet? I felt like all my clients would want the latest and greatest web technologies and applications to make their businesses run smoother and easier to manage. Nope. They just bickered with me and it was a series of struggles to get anything done. Twelve iterations of design and several "come to Jesus" meetings couldn't stop the non-stop changes for one client. Another client was stuck in a paper and pen world and didn't want to automate or change anything about the one process that hindered their business. Another wanted web design from 1995. It was maddening. After a year, I fired three of my clients, finished two of the sites and cut those clients loose and then kept the only one that was a joy to work with. My life returned to normal, but it made me realize exactly what you said. My LIFE is more important than a pile of money. Maintaining my relationships with my family and friends should be more important.

the_overseer 10y ago

A B C - Always Be Closing! In this case, always be shipping. I see a lot of resentment around here against the fact that you developers are always seen as lowly peons by managers. And here we have the perfect example why: this guy doesn't care about shipping, he only care about going into his little world and doing what he wants. This type of mentality leads to what we managers call 'coder mentality'. Programmers that see themselves as programmers instead of problem solvers. You need to get out of your head and realize that coding is just a tool to solve a problem. It's not something that you do just because. It makes no sense. Coding in of itself is useless. Problem solving though, is very useful. Some problems require only coding, some problems require some coding and other things, and other problems require no coding at all in order to be solved. You should always seek to solve problems that you and others have. Don't just go into your world and start coding. That will not make you a better programmer. We managers hate the 'coder' because he just wants to code and not solve business problems. That is why you are treated the way you are treated and will always command less respect than others. By the way, when things are down and we have to let people go, who do you think we let go first: the guy who shows interest in the business and how to make work better and cut costs, or the guy who just puts headphones on and starts coding surrounded by red bulls? I'll leave you with the now famouse Glengarry Glen Ross Scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XW6P0tiVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XW6P0tiVc Always be shipping! You don't ship, you don't exist. When I hire I always ask about shipped products specifically. The things that didn't ship don't exist. I consider that wasted time. One shipped product means more than 1000 personal projects that didn't ship, no matter how much you think you learnt.