5 ms·

> - Is this standard practice? Pretty common. > - How can you enjoy your weekend creative activities, and/or, use them for your potential future startups, cop

> - Is this standard practice? Pretty common. > - How can you enjoy your weekend creative activities, and/or, use them for your potential future startups, copyrights, patents, whatever, if you work full-time under such a stringent condition? (can you even write a novel and sell it, while you work full-time as a software engineer? or should you always ask permission first?) Remember that these documents are just the company's assertion of their opinion on the ownership of your work in your off hours. The law might have a different opinion, if it ever came down to it. > - Is it likely that Carmack had similar obligations while he was at Zenimax? In which case he very carelessly ignored them when he indulged in Oculus work. (but then he also has his rocket hobby going on so I don't know how that panned out in relationship to his employers, Zenimax, or FB). Very. And his situation isn't really defensible, because he was working on videogame-related stuff. This is why he (well, Oculus) lost the lawsuit. > - This raises an important concern. As a typical employed engineer, we don't pay much attention to the legal repurcussions of our employment. May be we (or I) should not carry out any undertaking without consulting a lawyer (specializing in these matters) first? Depends. The sum of my off hours work over the years has been a vt100 emulator, some programmer exercises, and some half-baked attempts at various game AI problems. Nothing worth a lawyer's time to tell me what I already know. Which is that you sign this agreement or you don't get the job, period.

inimino 10y ago
> Remember that these documents are just the company's assertion of their opinion on the ownership of your work in your off hours. Not if you sign it. > Which is that you sign this agreement or you don't get the job, period. That's a pretty crappy perspective. If you don't like the terms, negotiate. If you don't understand the terms, get your own lawyer to read it.
- hackits 10y ago
  Or you can ask them to explain the terms to you by leading by example. If they cannot articulate the terms or the terminology ask them to strike out the clause because both parties don't understand the terminology. Just because somebody presents you with a employment contract doesn't mean you have to sign it. Read it, ask them to explain parts you don't understand by leading by example how and where the clause of the contract would be put into practice. I've had some baffling contract terms put into contracts. I've asked and managed to get employers pay for 3rd party legal advice >= $2,000 for employment contracts. In summary if they cannot explain to you like a adult without saying `The lawyers told us to put this in we don't understand why`. Then it's not within your best interest to sign the contract. My own person experience stay away from firms that have lengthy overtly complicated contracts.
- lmkg 10y ago
  > Not if you sign it. Not always. The law can override contracts. Some states (especially California) put limitations on employment agreements. There are specific rights you have, where if you voluntarily sign a contract that explicitly gives up those rights, the contract is wrong and you still have the rights. Specifically, non-compete clauses are mostly invalid, and there is a limit to how much a company can own IP you produce outside of work.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    Here's the problem with that attitude: If you don't sign it and your company sues you, you can get a summary judgement to dismiss the case. This will cost you very little money. If you do sign it, it doesn't matter if it is unenforceable, you almost certainly will not get a summary judgement to dismiss the case. Breach of contract cases can go on for years. You will have to pay for a lawyer during that time. If you signed the document, even if you win you will probably not get back the money that you paid for the lawyer. So if you rely on the courts to throw out the contract that you signed, you can still be out tens of thousands of dollars. Also, if you are unemployed during the time that you are being sued for breach of contract, almost nobody else will touch you with a 10 foot pole. So quite likely you are paying out tens of thousands of dollars and you have no income. And you won't ever make that money back. Personally I don't sign anything I don't intend to honour. And yet, I was still sued by my former employer for breach of contract. Luckily the thing they sued me for was not in my contract and my subsequent employer was lawyered up to the hilt. The graciously offered to get me out of it for free. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
    - gkop 10y ago
      Are you in California?
- obstinate 10y ago
  > That's a pretty crappy perspective. If you don't like the terms, negotiate. Sometimes reality is crappy. Unless you're a legit famous person, most of these Bigcos are not going to adjust the terms of employment for you.

inimino 10y ago

> Remember that these documents are just the company's assertion of their opinion on the ownership of your work in your off hours. Not if you sign it. > Which is that you sign this agreement or you don't get the job, period. That's a pretty crappy perspective. If you don't like the terms, negotiate. If you don't understand the terms, get your own lawyer to read it.

hackits 10y ago
Or you can ask them to explain the terms to you by leading by example. If they cannot articulate the terms or the terminology ask them to strike out the clause because both parties don't understand the terminology. Just because somebody presents you with a employment contract doesn't mean you have to sign it. Read it, ask them to explain parts you don't understand by leading by example how and where the clause of the contract would be put into practice. I've had some baffling contract terms put into contracts. I've asked and managed to get employers pay for 3rd party legal advice >= $2,000 for employment contracts. In summary if they cannot explain to you like a adult without saying `The lawyers told us to put this in we don't understand why`. Then it's not within your best interest to sign the contract. My own person experience stay away from firms that have lengthy overtly complicated contracts.
lmkg 10y ago
> Not if you sign it. Not always. The law can override contracts. Some states (especially California) put limitations on employment agreements. There are specific rights you have, where if you voluntarily sign a contract that explicitly gives up those rights, the contract is wrong and you still have the rights. Specifically, non-compete clauses are mostly invalid, and there is a limit to how much a company can own IP you produce outside of work.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  Here's the problem with that attitude: If you don't sign it and your company sues you, you can get a summary judgement to dismiss the case. This will cost you very little money. If you do sign it, it doesn't matter if it is unenforceable, you almost certainly will not get a summary judgement to dismiss the case. Breach of contract cases can go on for years. You will have to pay for a lawyer during that time. If you signed the document, even if you win you will probably not get back the money that you paid for the lawyer. So if you rely on the courts to throw out the contract that you signed, you can still be out tens of thousands of dollars. Also, if you are unemployed during the time that you are being sued for breach of contract, almost nobody else will touch you with a 10 foot pole. So quite likely you are paying out tens of thousands of dollars and you have no income. And you won't ever make that money back. Personally I don't sign anything I don't intend to honour. And yet, I was still sued by my former employer for breach of contract. Luckily the thing they sued me for was not in my contract and my subsequent employer was lawyered up to the hilt. The graciously offered to get me out of it for free. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
  - gkop 10y ago
    Are you in California?
obstinate 10y ago
> That's a pretty crappy perspective. If you don't like the terms, negotiate. Sometimes reality is crappy. Unless you're a legit famous person, most of these Bigcos are not going to adjust the terms of employment for you.