5 ms·

What the guards did was wrong, but don't you think your belligerent drunk friend needs to share even a tiny bit of the blame? People act like civilians should b

by ythn 10y ago

What the guards did was wrong, but don't you think your belligerent drunk friend needs to share even a tiny bit of the blame? People act like civilians should be able to do or say literally anything and fully expect law enforcement to be perfectly rational and fair and gentle with them.

leesalminen 10y ago
She does. Which is why we didn't push an investigation too hard or go to the newspaper because of this potential reaction from the public. I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. The system worked on her and she has subordinated to the system. My opinion is that it is not OK to blame the victim. She was assaulted. That is illegal. She posed no physical threat to the guards. She was strapped down and out numbered 4:1. Would you blame a woman for being held down and gang raped because she dressed provocatively and said hello to these men? Of course not.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  How do you know her version of the story is the correct one? Are you sure she was really strapped down and tasered while restrained? We know she was drunk and belligerent, her recall might be imperfect. I am not saying that police and prison guards don't abuse prisoners, but people in custody aren't always right either.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    I think it boils down to: - she was seen leaving the scene strapped to a gurney en route to jail - the taser marks were visible for weeks in 3 separate areas of her body - she was psychologically damaged. Literally broken for weeks emotionally. It still manifests in strange ways over a year later. - we ran into another girl she was in jail with at court during pre trial. She was really concerned for my friends emotional well being after "what happened in there".
- ythn 10y ago
  > I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. I didn't say she is fully to blame, but you can't deny she was an instigator by being belligerent and/or drunk. Or rather, her actions were a catalyst to what happened to her. You can fully expect law enforcement officials to be emotionless machines, but the reality is that they are human as well and sometimes make incorrect choices based on circumstantial triggers.
  - matthewowen 10y ago
    Yes, and there never seem to be consequences for that. Don't you find that troubling?
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    I do not deny that she was an instigator. In fact, I nearly explicitly mentioned it by using the word belligerent. I contend that it's irrelevant. If some guy on the street is calling me ugly, fat, or stupid and I walk to him and clock him in the jaw, it's still assault and I would still be charged. The same should apply to jail guards.
    - accounted 10y ago
      >If some guy on the street is calling me ugly, fat, or stupid and I walk to him and clock him in the jaw, it's still assault and I would still be charged. The same should apply to jail guards. I agree that if a jail guard just walked up to somebody who spoke ill of them on the street and punched them, they should be charged. But I don't think that things should be simplified that much in the correctional environment because there is a big difference. If inmates were loudly talking down to guards and acting belligerent, that would present a disruption to the orderly running of the institution. It would also set a standard for other inmates to act in that manner. Does that mean I'm saying corrections personnel should feel free to beat inmates at any opportunity? No. But the jail and prison environment has more complex factors at play when inmates act up than just somebody is making fun of me.
      - leesalminen 10y ago
aqme28 10y ago
I 100% believe that "civilians should be able to do or say literally anything and fully expect law enforcement to be perfectly rational and fair and gentle with them." And I don't see why that's not feasible.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  You can expect law enforcement to be 'perfectly rational and fair', but expecting them to always be gentle is unrealistic. When people are being violent, it sometimes requires physical force to restrain them, and oftentimes that physical force can't be gentle. In addition, being 'perfectly rational' does not always mean doing the correct thing every time, with the benefit of hindsight. You can be rational, but in real life we have imperfect information. Innocent people are sometimes hurt because of this imperfect information, even if everyone behaves rationally. It sucks, but is unavoidable.
  - Frondo 10y ago
    If "always gentle" is unrealistic, I'd like to set the bar a little higher than "tazing a restrained person 3 times".
    - digler999 10y ago
      None of us was there. If she was belligerent drunk, how could she reliably remember everything that happened ? More likely story is she refused orders to calm down, assaulted CO's and got tazed before being restrained. That would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
      - leesalminen 10y ago
        She was strapped to the gurney prior to leaving the scene of arrest.
      - leesalminen 10y ago
        She was strapped to the gurney prior to leaving the scene of arrest.
sageikosa 10y ago
You are of course accepting completely that a belligerent drunk woman had sufficient unbiased recall to fairly assess the ordering and significance of events. If you're a belligerent drunk, its usually because you believe everyone is being belligerent with you, regardless of whether they are or are not. If drunk people had good powers of decision making and memory, we'd allow them to drive.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  The scars from the taser guns were visible for several weeks. As were the psychological effects. She was broken. I've known this woman for most of my adult life and have never found her to be one to embellish a story for theatre.
late2part 10y ago
oy vey. When you give law enforcement a gun and taser, you expect them to use it appropriately. Your question begs the question that their action was reasonable in light of the "rude" behaviour. There is no situation where it's okay for LE to shoot or tase someone because of non-threatening words.
- eon1 10y ago
  > There is no situation where it's okay for LE to shoot or tase someone because of words. ftfy

by ythn 10y ago

leesalminen 10y ago

She does. Which is why we didn't push an investigation too hard or go to the newspaper because of this potential reaction from the public. I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. The system worked on her and she has subordinated to the system. My opinion is that it is not OK to blame the victim. She was assaulted. That is illegal. She posed no physical threat to the guards. She was strapped down and out numbered 4:1. Would you blame a woman for being held down and gang raped because she dressed provocatively and said hello to these men? Of course not.

cortesoft 10y ago
How do you know her version of the story is the correct one? Are you sure she was really strapped down and tasered while restrained? We know she was drunk and belligerent, her recall might be imperfect. I am not saying that police and prison guards don't abuse prisoners, but people in custody aren't always right either.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  I think it boils down to: - she was seen leaving the scene strapped to a gurney en route to jail - the taser marks were visible for weeks in 3 separate areas of her body - she was psychologically damaged. Literally broken for weeks emotionally. It still manifests in strange ways over a year later. - we ran into another girl she was in jail with at court during pre trial. She was really concerned for my friends emotional well being after "what happened in there".
ythn 10y ago
> I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. I didn't say she is fully to blame, but you can't deny she was an instigator by being belligerent and/or drunk. Or rather, her actions were a catalyst to what happened to her. You can fully expect law enforcement officials to be emotionless machines, but the reality is that they are human as well and sometimes make incorrect choices based on circumstantial triggers.
- matthewowen 10y ago
  Yes, and there never seem to be consequences for that. Don't you find that troubling?
- leesalminen 10y ago
  I do not deny that she was an instigator. In fact, I nearly explicitly mentioned it by using the word belligerent. I contend that it's irrelevant. If some guy on the street is calling me ugly, fat, or stupid and I walk to him and clock him in the jaw, it's still assault and I would still be charged. The same should apply to jail guards.
  - accounted 10y ago
    >If some guy on the street is calling me ugly, fat, or stupid and I walk to him and clock him in the jaw, it's still assault and I would still be charged. The same should apply to jail guards. I agree that if a jail guard just walked up to somebody who spoke ill of them on the street and punched them, they should be charged. But I don't think that things should be simplified that much in the correctional environment because there is a big difference. If inmates were loudly talking down to guards and acting belligerent, that would present a disruption to the orderly running of the institution. It would also set a standard for other inmates to act in that manner. Does that mean I'm saying corrections personnel should feel free to beat inmates at any opportunity? No. But the jail and prison environment has more complex factors at play when inmates act up than just somebody is making fun of me.
    - leesalminen 10y ago

aqme28 10y ago

I 100% believe that "civilians should be able to do or say literally anything and fully expect law enforcement to be perfectly rational and fair and gentle with them." And I don't see why that's not feasible.

cortesoft 10y ago
You can expect law enforcement to be 'perfectly rational and fair', but expecting them to always be gentle is unrealistic. When people are being violent, it sometimes requires physical force to restrain them, and oftentimes that physical force can't be gentle. In addition, being 'perfectly rational' does not always mean doing the correct thing every time, with the benefit of hindsight. You can be rational, but in real life we have imperfect information. Innocent people are sometimes hurt because of this imperfect information, even if everyone behaves rationally. It sucks, but is unavoidable.
- Frondo 10y ago
  If "always gentle" is unrealistic, I'd like to set the bar a little higher than "tazing a restrained person 3 times".
  - digler999 10y ago
    None of us was there. If she was belligerent drunk, how could she reliably remember everything that happened ? More likely story is she refused orders to calm down, assaulted CO's and got tazed before being restrained. That would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
    - leesalminen 10y ago
      She was strapped to the gurney prior to leaving the scene of arrest.
    - leesalminen 10y ago
      She was strapped to the gurney prior to leaving the scene of arrest.

sageikosa 10y ago

You are of course accepting completely that a belligerent drunk woman had sufficient unbiased recall to fairly assess the ordering and significance of events. If you're a belligerent drunk, its usually because you believe everyone is being belligerent with you, regardless of whether they are or are not. If drunk people had good powers of decision making and memory, we'd allow them to drive.

leesalminen 10y ago
The scars from the taser guns were visible for several weeks. As were the psychological effects. She was broken. I've known this woman for most of my adult life and have never found her to be one to embellish a story for theatre.

late2part 10y ago

oy vey. When you give law enforcement a gun and taser, you expect them to use it appropriately. Your question begs the question that their action was reasonable in light of the "rude" behaviour. There is no situation where it's okay for LE to shoot or tase someone because of non-threatening words.

eon1 10y ago
> There is no situation where it's okay for LE to shoot or tase someone because of words. ftfy