4 ms·

You make an interesting appeal. I am not sure what you are trying to prove by saying that the poster will "get" it if they just talk to cops, ambulance drivers,

You make an interesting appeal. I am not sure what you are trying to prove by saying that the poster will "get" it if they just talk to cops, ambulance drivers, and immigration officers. I would assume that you are trying to say they will find that immigrants commit crime (the original poster is speaking to a cop), they get hurt more often (the original poster is speaking to an ambulance driver), and they, now I am really stretching, deal with immigration officers more (the original poster is speaking to an immigration officer?). These will all be true regardless of the immigrants status and background. You haven't made any point at all. The original poster said that immigrants pay taxes. Do you not agree? He said they contribute to US companies. Do you not agree? He said they make the US more powerful. Do you not agree? He said they don't contribute these same things to their home country. Do you not agree? If you are going to make an argument, make one.

throw_away_777 10y ago
US citizens pay taxes, contribute to US companies and make the US more powerful. US citizens also contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities than immigrants do. It is a myth that their is an infinite supply of jobs, and that supply/demand somehow doesn't apply to immigration. You aren't really making an argument either.
- trcollinson 10y ago
  Economically speaking everyone pays taxes. Also economically speaking no one pays taxes equally. I would love to see actual statics that show that immigrants do not contribute to local economies at a rate similar to others in a community at a similar pay bracket. As for supply and demand. I believe the supply and demand of the job market as a whole is exactly what is causing immigration. I believe those market forces will continue to pull in immigration, legally or not. Market forces have a hard time understanding law.
- Swizec 10y ago
  > US citizens also contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities than immigrants do I don't know, man. The state of California and the federal government take their rightful 38% share from my income. I'm not a citizen. My girlfriend also pays her rightful 38% share of income. She is a citizen. And my income is a bit higher so in absolute terms I contribute more as an immigrant than my girlfriend does as a citizen. Percentagewise it's the same because we're in the same tax bracket. Anecdata, yes, but my point is that everyone who is in X tax bracket pays Y% taxes. Want immigrants to contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities? Give them higher salaries. ;)
  - zzleeper 10y ago
    Also, unless a migrant stays in the US forever, they won't receive the benefits of their social security contributions. EG: I pay 6.2*2=12.4% as social security, but unless I contribute for at least 10 years, those contributions are lost. So many H1B holders end up paying 12% more in taxes than their American counterparts...
    - Swizec 10y ago
      Oh that's a good point I didn't even think of! I have to pay all those social things and will likely never see them again. Like throwing money in the furnace. And unlike an H1B, my O-1 visa is not dual intent. That means I get to stay in constant purgatory. Haven't really looked into it, but I probably should. Either way, legal immigrants contribute just as much, if not more, as citizens do. Edit: Looks like they support sending social security payments to foreign countries, if you meet requirements. That's neat. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
  - throw_away_777 10y ago
    I didn't mean in taxes, I meant that immigrants often send money home or buy from their native country, for instance when on vacation etc.
    - Swizec 10y ago
      I for one do not. And none of my immigrant friends do either. There's two types of immigrants in that regard. One has family back home that they support by getting a better job abroad. They might be the majority, I don't know. Then there's the young person who moved abroad right after college or studied abroad in the first place. They're looking for better opportunities for themselves. Many start families abroad and their children are citizens. Many if not most immigrants are hybrids of above. One family member moves abroad with the goal of sending money back home to provide for their family. But the endgame is to eventually bring the rest of the family over once the first immigrant finishes bootstrapping their new life. I would wager that most immigrants who do have family back home, would love nothing more than to bring the rest of the family over to their new country.
- neuronexmachina 10y ago
  Economics isn't a zero-sum game.
- timthelion 10y ago
  If your supply/demand argument works, then why is rural Europe suffering from long term unemployment when European cities long-term have more open positions than unemployed? Why is it, that in southern siberia, where there is massive mining and forestry industry, there is also massive unemployment and people move cross continent to Moscow to find work, despite the fact that Moscow has almost no real industry.
jimmyk 10y ago
>These will all be true regardless of the immigrants status and background. Are you seriously suggesting that immigrants of all backgrounds are equally likely to be beneficial to this country?
- trcollinson 10y ago
  I did not make that statement at all. The part you quoted references an implication that if you ask cops, ambulance drivers, and immigration officers about immigrants they will talk about immigrants in the light of what they see. I'll be very clear. Immigrants and non-immigrants are not equally beneficial to the country. No one is equally beneficial to the country.
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    The statement you responded to implies that cops and so on will speak negatively about illegal immigrants but will not speak negatively about (certain types of) legal immigrants. That doesn't mean none of those types of legal immigrants cause problems for those people, it means they don't cause enough problems to draw the ire of those people.
- chongli 10y ago
  I think the point that is really crying out to be made is that college campuses and the backs of ambulances/squad cars are two very biased sets of places to attempt to collect a representative sample of the immigrant population. In fact, if you were to collect samples of natural born American citizens in the same two sets of places you'd reach the exact same biased conclusions about Americans.
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    If you collected statistics about immigrants on college campuses and immigrants in the back of a squad car you'd find they got here from very different places and on very different visas (or lack of visa). In fact, if you were to collect samples of natural born American citizens in the same two sets of places you'd reach the exact same biased conclusions about Americans. What conclusions are you referring to, in particular?

throw_away_777 10y ago

US citizens pay taxes, contribute to US companies and make the US more powerful. US citizens also contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities than immigrants do. It is a myth that their is an infinite supply of jobs, and that supply/demand somehow doesn't apply to immigration. You aren't really making an argument either.

trcollinson 10y ago
Economically speaking everyone pays taxes. Also economically speaking no one pays taxes equally. I would love to see actual statics that show that immigrants do not contribute to local economies at a rate similar to others in a community at a similar pay bracket. As for supply and demand. I believe the supply and demand of the job market as a whole is exactly what is causing immigration. I believe those market forces will continue to pull in immigration, legally or not. Market forces have a hard time understanding law.
Swizec 10y ago
> US citizens also contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities than immigrants do I don't know, man. The state of California and the federal government take their rightful 38% share from my income. I'm not a citizen. My girlfriend also pays her rightful 38% share of income. She is a citizen. And my income is a bit higher so in absolute terms I contribute more as an immigrant than my girlfriend does as a citizen. Percentagewise it's the same because we're in the same tax bracket. Anecdata, yes, but my point is that everyone who is in X tax bracket pays Y% taxes. Want immigrants to contribute a higher percentage of their income to local communities? Give them higher salaries. ;)
- zzleeper 10y ago
  Also, unless a migrant stays in the US forever, they won't receive the benefits of their social security contributions. EG: I pay 6.2*2=12.4% as social security, but unless I contribute for at least 10 years, those contributions are lost. So many H1B holders end up paying 12% more in taxes than their American counterparts...
  - Swizec 10y ago
    Oh that's a good point I didn't even think of! I have to pay all those social things and will likely never see them again. Like throwing money in the furnace. And unlike an H1B, my O-1 visa is not dual intent. That means I get to stay in constant purgatory. Haven't really looked into it, but I probably should. Either way, legal immigrants contribute just as much, if not more, as citizens do. Edit: Looks like they support sending social security payments to foreign countries, if you meet requirements. That's neat. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
- throw_away_777 10y ago
  I didn't mean in taxes, I meant that immigrants often send money home or buy from their native country, for instance when on vacation etc.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    I for one do not. And none of my immigrant friends do either. There's two types of immigrants in that regard. One has family back home that they support by getting a better job abroad. They might be the majority, I don't know. Then there's the young person who moved abroad right after college or studied abroad in the first place. They're looking for better opportunities for themselves. Many start families abroad and their children are citizens. Many if not most immigrants are hybrids of above. One family member moves abroad with the goal of sending money back home to provide for their family. But the endgame is to eventually bring the rest of the family over once the first immigrant finishes bootstrapping their new life. I would wager that most immigrants who do have family back home, would love nothing more than to bring the rest of the family over to their new country.
neuronexmachina 10y ago
Economics isn't a zero-sum game.
timthelion 10y ago
If your supply/demand argument works, then why is rural Europe suffering from long term unemployment when European cities long-term have more open positions than unemployed? Why is it, that in southern siberia, where there is massive mining and forestry industry, there is also massive unemployment and people move cross continent to Moscow to find work, despite the fact that Moscow has almost no real industry.

jimmyk 10y ago

>These will all be true regardless of the immigrants status and background. Are you seriously suggesting that immigrants of all backgrounds are equally likely to be beneficial to this country?

trcollinson 10y ago
I did not make that statement at all. The part you quoted references an implication that if you ask cops, ambulance drivers, and immigration officers about immigrants they will talk about immigrants in the light of what they see. I'll be very clear. Immigrants and non-immigrants are not equally beneficial to the country. No one is equally beneficial to the country.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  The statement you responded to implies that cops and so on will speak negatively about illegal immigrants but will not speak negatively about (certain types of) legal immigrants. That doesn't mean none of those types of legal immigrants cause problems for those people, it means they don't cause enough problems to draw the ire of those people.
chongli 10y ago
I think the point that is really crying out to be made is that college campuses and the backs of ambulances/squad cars are two very biased sets of places to attempt to collect a representative sample of the immigrant population. In fact, if you were to collect samples of natural born American citizens in the same two sets of places you'd reach the exact same biased conclusions about Americans.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  If you collected statistics about immigrants on college campuses and immigrants in the back of a squad car you'd find they got here from very different places and on very different visas (or lack of visa). In fact, if you were to collect samples of natural born American citizens in the same two sets of places you'd reach the exact same biased conclusions about Americans. What conclusions are you referring to, in particular?