7 ms·

Having seen the horrific rikers beating video. [1] I don't understand why in this day and age, prisons are NOT under 100% CCTV monitoring. Is this just out of s

Having seen the horrific rikers beating video. [1] I don't understand why in this day and age, prisons are NOT under 100% CCTV monitoring. Is this just out of sight, out of mind approach? As we debate body-worn cameras to prevent police brutality, ensuring prison and jails are kept under constant surveillance might help reduce recidivism. It's also tragic that there is direct equivalence to the charter/public school debate. A lot of the arguments for/against charters schools can be simply applied by swapping school for prison. And just like test-scores/teaching-philosophy, you have a superior scandinavian approach. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/video/nyregion/100000002996576/footage-of-inmate-beating-at-rikers.html https://www.nytimes.com/video/nyregion/100000002996576/foota...

leesalminen 10y ago
I agree. I know someone who was arrested for being drunk in public (very, very drunk and belligerent). Once at the jail I guess she continued being belligerent. At this point she was restrained on a gurney, surrounded by no less than 4 guards. She said something rude and as a result was tazed not once but 3 times. After I bailed her out we went to the sherrifs office and requested an investigation. After a few days they claimed to not be able to find any video of this happening. They conceded that there are multiple areas where the cameras can't see. I also found out that the guards at the jail are not sheriff deputies, but employed by a private corporation. But they wear the same uniform as the deputies, sans badge. The criminal justice system in this country is disgusting. Truly disgusting. If I'm ever fortunate enough to be financially secure (long term) I plan to dedicate my time to induce change in this area of our society. One interest effect this had on me was respect for local law enforcement. I used to have some level of respect for them and what I had observed as professionalism. That's all out the window now, and I have 0 respect for them. Instead of being polite and reasonable I am now combative and uncooperative in any encounter. They can taser me all they want, Ill just use it as a public campaign against them.
- ythn 10y ago
  What the guards did was wrong, but don't you think your belligerent drunk friend needs to share even a tiny bit of the blame? People act like civilians should be able to do or say literally anything and fully expect law enforcement to be perfectly rational and fair and gentle with them.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    She does. Which is why we didn't push an investigation too hard or go to the newspaper because of this potential reaction from the public. I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. The system worked on her and she has subordinated to the system. My opinion is that it is not OK to blame the victim. She was assaulted. That is illegal. She posed no physical threat to the guards. She was strapped down and out numbered 4:1. Would you blame a woman for being held down and gang raped because she dressed provocatively and said hello to these men? Of course not.
    - cortesoft 10y ago
      How do you know her version of the story is the correct one? Are you sure she was really strapped down and tasered while restrained? We know she was drunk and belligerent, her recall might be imperfect. I am not saying that police and prison guards don't abuse prisoners, but people in custody aren't always right either.
      - leesalminen 10y ago
        I think it boils down to: - she was seen leaving the scene strapped to a gurney en route to jail - the taser marks were visible for weeks in 3 separate areas of her body - she was psychologically damaged. Literally broken for weeks emotionally. It still manifests in strange ways over a year later. - we ran into another girl she was in jail with at court during pre trial. She was really concerned for my friends emotional well being after "what happened in there".
    - ythn 10y ago
      > I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. I didn't say she is fully to blame, but you can't deny she was an instigator by being belligerent and/or drunk. Or rather, her actions were a catalyst to what happened to her. You can fully expect law enforcement officials to be emotionless machines, but the reality is that they are human as well and sometimes make incorrect choices based on circumstantial triggers.
- stronglikedan 10y ago
  > Instead of being polite and reasonable I am now combative and uncooperative in any encounter. Just remember: they can get away with anything. It's their word against yours, and they will always win. If you are lucky enough to have any evidence against them, it will just get lost eventually (your case in point). > They can taser me all they want, Ill just use it as a public campaign against them. No one in a position to do anything about it will listen. You'll just be adding insult to your injury. When encountering law enforcement, it's best just to "yes sir"/"no sir" them, and hope you don't come out of it with a charge, or worse. Every question they ask you is an attempt to get you to incriminate yourself. They are not there to help you. It's in your best interest to do everything you can to end the encounter as soon as possible.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    Wise advice. I never insult them or anything like that. I don't use sir or ma'am. I love asking if I'm being detained. I never carry ID on me (not in a must identify state). I love denying to answer questions. I agree that they are never here to help. I don't answer questions as a matter of course.
- ransom1538 10y ago
  Another guard trick if you are drunk & being hostile is to claim you 'struck an officer'. Since you are blacked out drunk you have no memory of the altercation and now face a felony charge.
- smbullet 10y ago
  Don't you think you could better promote change by working for the system rather than being a dissident outside the system? Everytime I see threads that talk about "bad apples" I find it strange that I never see comments that encourage getting "good apples" to apply.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    I've thought about it. I've even contended in debates that if society restored respect for civil service the situation would likely improve. Anecdotally I've known multiple people pretty well before they became cops. They were all good people and believed everyone had rights. Then, the gang mentality set in. Now is "us" versus "them". It got to the point where I no longer associate with them. It sure is a tough problem.
    - Fjolsvith 10y ago
      I ran into an old work acquaintance a while back and he was wearing a new prison guard uniform. I blurted out, "Oh no! You've gone over to the dark side!"
  - eon1 10y ago
    Authority figures are regularly given a sort of indoctrination on induction. It's us vs them, they're criminal scum, etc etc. You can't have a civil conversation with a cop, even an off-duty one, about how criminals might be driven to criminal acts by things beyond their control and how they're still people. They simply choose that lifestyle and therefore are unequivocally The Bad Guys. It's in the entire culture, one person isn't going to change it. I do generally dislike cops, and I know there are still some good ones - but they're holdouts, and even they usually only hold out so far or so long before they fold to the cultural expectation for them to be overbearing bullies and thugs. Good people don't become good cops, good people lose themselves becoming cops.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    > Everytime I see threads that talk about "bad apples" I find it strange that I never see comments that encourage getting "good apples" to apply. Are you serious? Or being sarcastic? The whole point of the "bad apples" metaphor is that the bad apples cause the good apples to rot. https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/one+bad+apple.html https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/one+bad+apple.... Plenty of "good apples" apply, but are spoilt.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jeffdavis 10y ago
Are you saying that it is morally repugnant to pay money to attend private school?
- aub3bhat 10y ago
  I am not saying that at all, in fact having grown up in a country with predominantly private school system, it always amazes me how the land of capitalism ended up with essentially socialist system for education.

leesalminen 10y ago

I agree. I know someone who was arrested for being drunk in public (very, very drunk and belligerent). Once at the jail I guess she continued being belligerent. At this point she was restrained on a gurney, surrounded by no less than 4 guards. She said something rude and as a result was tazed not once but 3 times. After I bailed her out we went to the sherrifs office and requested an investigation. After a few days they claimed to not be able to find any video of this happening. They conceded that there are multiple areas where the cameras can't see. I also found out that the guards at the jail are not sheriff deputies, but employed by a private corporation. But they wear the same uniform as the deputies, sans badge. The criminal justice system in this country is disgusting. Truly disgusting. If I'm ever fortunate enough to be financially secure (long term) I plan to dedicate my time to induce change in this area of our society. One interest effect this had on me was respect for local law enforcement. I used to have some level of respect for them and what I had observed as professionalism. That's all out the window now, and I have 0 respect for them. Instead of being polite and reasonable I am now combative and uncooperative in any encounter. They can taser me all they want, Ill just use it as a public campaign against them.

ythn 10y ago
What the guards did was wrong, but don't you think your belligerent drunk friend needs to share even a tiny bit of the blame? People act like civilians should be able to do or say literally anything and fully expect law enforcement to be perfectly rational and fair and gentle with them.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  She does. Which is why we didn't push an investigation too hard or go to the newspaper because of this potential reaction from the public. I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. The system worked on her and she has subordinated to the system. My opinion is that it is not OK to blame the victim. She was assaulted. That is illegal. She posed no physical threat to the guards. She was strapped down and out numbered 4:1. Would you blame a woman for being held down and gang raped because she dressed provocatively and said hello to these men? Of course not.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    How do you know her version of the story is the correct one? Are you sure she was really strapped down and tasered while restrained? We know she was drunk and belligerent, her recall might be imperfect. I am not saying that police and prison guards don't abuse prisoners, but people in custody aren't always right either.
    - leesalminen 10y ago
      I think it boils down to: - she was seen leaving the scene strapped to a gurney en route to jail - the taser marks were visible for weeks in 3 separate areas of her body - she was psychologically damaged. Literally broken for weeks emotionally. It still manifests in strange ways over a year later. - we ran into another girl she was in jail with at court during pre trial. She was really concerned for my friends emotional well being after "what happened in there".
  - ythn 10y ago
    > I don't agree with her and I do not believe she is to blame. I didn't say she is fully to blame, but you can't deny she was an instigator by being belligerent and/or drunk. Or rather, her actions were a catalyst to what happened to her. You can fully expect law enforcement officials to be emotionless machines, but the reality is that they are human as well and sometimes make incorrect choices based on circumstantial triggers.
stronglikedan 10y ago
> Instead of being polite and reasonable I am now combative and uncooperative in any encounter. Just remember: they can get away with anything. It's their word against yours, and they will always win. If you are lucky enough to have any evidence against them, it will just get lost eventually (your case in point). > They can taser me all they want, Ill just use it as a public campaign against them. No one in a position to do anything about it will listen. You'll just be adding insult to your injury. When encountering law enforcement, it's best just to "yes sir"/"no sir" them, and hope you don't come out of it with a charge, or worse. Every question they ask you is an attempt to get you to incriminate yourself. They are not there to help you. It's in your best interest to do everything you can to end the encounter as soon as possible.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  Wise advice. I never insult them or anything like that. I don't use sir or ma'am. I love asking if I'm being detained. I never carry ID on me (not in a must identify state). I love denying to answer questions. I agree that they are never here to help. I don't answer questions as a matter of course.
ransom1538 10y ago
Another guard trick if you are drunk & being hostile is to claim you 'struck an officer'. Since you are blacked out drunk you have no memory of the altercation and now face a felony charge.
smbullet 10y ago
Don't you think you could better promote change by working for the system rather than being a dissident outside the system? Everytime I see threads that talk about "bad apples" I find it strange that I never see comments that encourage getting "good apples" to apply.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  I've thought about it. I've even contended in debates that if society restored respect for civil service the situation would likely improve. Anecdotally I've known multiple people pretty well before they became cops. They were all good people and believed everyone had rights. Then, the gang mentality set in. Now is "us" versus "them". It got to the point where I no longer associate with them. It sure is a tough problem.
  - Fjolsvith 10y ago
    I ran into an old work acquaintance a while back and he was wearing a new prison guard uniform. I blurted out, "Oh no! You've gone over to the dark side!"
- eon1 10y ago
  Authority figures are regularly given a sort of indoctrination on induction. It's us vs them, they're criminal scum, etc etc. You can't have a civil conversation with a cop, even an off-duty one, about how criminals might be driven to criminal acts by things beyond their control and how they're still people. They simply choose that lifestyle and therefore are unequivocally The Bad Guys. It's in the entire culture, one person isn't going to change it. I do generally dislike cops, and I know there are still some good ones - but they're holdouts, and even they usually only hold out so far or so long before they fold to the cultural expectation for them to be overbearing bullies and thugs. Good people don't become good cops, good people lose themselves becoming cops.
- jMyles 10y ago
  > Everytime I see threads that talk about "bad apples" I find it strange that I never see comments that encourage getting "good apples" to apply. Are you serious? Or being sarcastic? The whole point of the "bad apples" metaphor is that the bad apples cause the good apples to rot. https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/one+bad+apple.html https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/one+bad+apple.... Plenty of "good apples" apply, but are spoilt.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jeffdavis 10y ago

Are you saying that it is morally repugnant to pay money to attend private school?

aub3bhat 10y ago
I am not saying that at all, in fact having grown up in a country with predominantly private school system, it always amazes me how the land of capitalism ended up with essentially socialist system for education.