4 ms·

When I read this in Snow Crash, I thought Neal Stephenson was being deliberately absurd. But here we are. Want to go to The Hoosegow LLC and not The Clink, In

When I read this in Snow Crash, I thought Neal Stephenson was being deliberately absurd. But here we are. Want to go to The Hoosegow LLC and not The Clink, Incorporated? That'll be an extra $50 a night.

pjc50 10y ago
First thing I thought of too. Another example of an extreme parody dystopia becoming reality.
logfromblammo 10y ago
I didn't even bat an eye. This was probably because this is completely sensible and logical in a libertarian/anarchist society. The concept is expanded in other works of dystopic fiction. You pay for the best jail you can afford. If you are found innocent, your accuser/prosecutor has to reimburse your costs. If you are found guilty, you have to pay restitution to your victims (or their still-living representatives), and the justice service provider handling your case will take whatever measures may be appropriate to protect their subscribers from you after your release. If you can't immediately make restitution, there may be a supervised work program around that will help you finance your jail boarding and court judgments. Or maybe the judge will work out a deal to reduce your weregeld bill, perhaps in exchange for something like submitting to a specific torture, or having a warning tattooed across your forehead. If you're a really hard case, you just get named outlaw, and someone kills you for the bounty. For most people, instead of paying taxes to a county, you would pay a subscription fee to a company that provides all-in-one security, dispute resolution, arbitration, rehabilitation, and property and casualty insurance. You might pay $99/month to a reseller agent of Brinks Allstate, and your neighbor might pay $119/month directly to Alfa Pinkertons through their website. If your kid's bike gets stolen, the cop-adjuster comes by to take your report, helps you file your claim, and determines whether it would be cost effective to investigate and prosecute. If they do, and it turns out your neighbor's cousin was operating a bike theft ring out of their garage, the Alfa Pinkertons arrest him, put him in their jail, and provide him with defense counsel. Brinks Allstate and Alfa Pinkerton have a pre-existing extradition agreement in place, engage Wopner-Brown-Scheindlin as their arbitration subcontractor, who in turn sub-subcontracts some jurors from YourPeers. (You might also need to have a separate justice provider through your workplace.) After the neighbor is found guilty, he has to pay back the cost of reimbursing the bike owners. Perhaps a few of them are willing to buy their stolen bikes back with [a portion of] their insurance money. Until his checks clear, he stays in the Alfa Pinkerton jail's sweatshop, working off that debt at $X/hour. After he's out, he goes right back to being that creepy guy living above your neighbor's garage, and his credit score goes back up with that "RESTITUTION PAID IN FULL" line on his report. As bad as this all sounds, our actual, real-life criminal control system is in some ways worse.
- aaron_m04 10y ago
  I feel like there would be emergent effects that would make this far worse in reality than the way you described it. Do I think it's better than our current system. Probably. Do I think we can come up with a much better system? Yes!
- boundring 10y ago
  Kudos on thinking this through. There's many ways in which a dystopian automated system of surveillance and justice would be preferable, but society tends to love organizing its own systems of award and punishment.
- twoquestions 10y ago
  That's a lot of people that have to work together when they don't have to and have no incentive to in order for this to be even somewhat effective. Part of me wants to be a libertarian/anarchist, but the way their ideas resemble freshman physics explanations that ignore friction and wind resistance really turns me off.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    The incentive for everyone is in not getting murdered, pillaged, or otherwise brutalized by roving bands of outlaw raiders, like in Mad Max or Fallout. Also, the whole thing runs on pure, unadulterated money-grubbing. A libertarian world really is a nightmare for the people who believe that the government world does not essentially do exactly the same thing, but with better PR, and maybe different price points. The government version of freshman physics assumes a spherical cow. The libertarian version assumes a spherical pig. The Internet argues about the flavor of the milk. The truth is that no one will admit there may be warts on their favorite goblin baby until they are growing one right on the end of their pointy little green nose. I have already spent an awful lot of time on the Internet arguing both for and against libertarian ideas. The only good thing that can really be said about the adherents of alternate political views is that at least they recognize that change is only possible if you try something different. You can't really ever predict the outcome of a system when you divorce its ideal workings from the real people who will eventually be running it.

pjc50 10y ago

First thing I thought of too. Another example of an extreme parody dystopia becoming reality.

logfromblammo 10y ago

I didn't even bat an eye. This was probably because this is completely sensible and logical in a libertarian/anarchist society. The concept is expanded in other works of dystopic fiction. You pay for the best jail you can afford. If you are found innocent, your accuser/prosecutor has to reimburse your costs. If you are found guilty, you have to pay restitution to your victims (or their still-living representatives), and the justice service provider handling your case will take whatever measures may be appropriate to protect their subscribers from you after your release. If you can't immediately make restitution, there may be a supervised work program around that will help you finance your jail boarding and court judgments. Or maybe the judge will work out a deal to reduce your weregeld bill, perhaps in exchange for something like submitting to a specific torture, or having a warning tattooed across your forehead. If you're a really hard case, you just get named outlaw, and someone kills you for the bounty. For most people, instead of paying taxes to a county, you would pay a subscription fee to a company that provides all-in-one security, dispute resolution, arbitration, rehabilitation, and property and casualty insurance. You might pay $99/month to a reseller agent of Brinks Allstate, and your neighbor might pay $119/month directly to Alfa Pinkertons through their website. If your kid's bike gets stolen, the cop-adjuster comes by to take your report, helps you file your claim, and determines whether it would be cost effective to investigate and prosecute. If they do, and it turns out your neighbor's cousin was operating a bike theft ring out of their garage, the Alfa Pinkertons arrest him, put him in their jail, and provide him with defense counsel. Brinks Allstate and Alfa Pinkerton have a pre-existing extradition agreement in place, engage Wopner-Brown-Scheindlin as their arbitration subcontractor, who in turn sub-subcontracts some jurors from YourPeers. (You might also need to have a separate justice provider through your workplace.) After the neighbor is found guilty, he has to pay back the cost of reimbursing the bike owners. Perhaps a few of them are willing to buy their stolen bikes back with [a portion of] their insurance money. Until his checks clear, he stays in the Alfa Pinkerton jail's sweatshop, working off that debt at $X/hour. After he's out, he goes right back to being that creepy guy living above your neighbor's garage, and his credit score goes back up with that "RESTITUTION PAID IN FULL" line on his report. As bad as this all sounds, our actual, real-life criminal control system is in some ways worse.

aaron_m04 10y ago
I feel like there would be emergent effects that would make this far worse in reality than the way you described it. Do I think it's better than our current system. Probably. Do I think we can come up with a much better system? Yes!
boundring 10y ago
Kudos on thinking this through. There's many ways in which a dystopian automated system of surveillance and justice would be preferable, but society tends to love organizing its own systems of award and punishment.
twoquestions 10y ago
That's a lot of people that have to work together when they don't have to and have no incentive to in order for this to be even somewhat effective. Part of me wants to be a libertarian/anarchist, but the way their ideas resemble freshman physics explanations that ignore friction and wind resistance really turns me off.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  The incentive for everyone is in not getting murdered, pillaged, or otherwise brutalized by roving bands of outlaw raiders, like in Mad Max or Fallout. Also, the whole thing runs on pure, unadulterated money-grubbing. A libertarian world really is a nightmare for the people who believe that the government world does not essentially do exactly the same thing, but with better PR, and maybe different price points. The government version of freshman physics assumes a spherical cow. The libertarian version assumes a spherical pig. The Internet argues about the flavor of the milk. The truth is that no one will admit there may be warts on their favorite goblin baby until they are growing one right on the end of their pointy little green nose. I have already spent an awful lot of time on the Internet arguing both for and against libertarian ideas. The only good thing that can really be said about the adherents of alternate political views is that at least they recognize that change is only possible if you try something different. You can't really ever predict the outcome of a system when you divorce its ideal workings from the real people who will eventually be running it.