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In light of recent events [0], there's a non-zero chance that some founders out there would rather avoid going to the US at all - if only to protest with their

In light of recent events [0], there's a non-zero chance that some founders out there would rather avoid going to the US at all - if only to protest with their wallet. It might be more sensible to open a second incubator in the EU. Berlin, Amsterdam, Dublin, Barcelona, there are plenty of options. (London is a good choice on paper too but pray tell what'll happen after Brexit.) [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/26/u-s-detains-and-nearly-deports-french-jewish-historian/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/26...

rocky1138 10y ago
Why not Waterloo? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/kitchener-waterloo-startup/article25558263/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/kitchener-waterloo...
- grigory 10y ago
  Having spent a few years in KW, I have a feeling it might be difficult to convince people to move there.
  - mikepurvis 10y ago
    How long ago? I've been here 12 years (first school, now work), and it's changed a lot, almost all for the better. There's a decent arts/music scene, a dozen good restaurants, affordable housing, lots of new construction, light rail coming online next year.
    - sdflkd 10y ago
      Not much to do in Waterloo. It's good if you're introverted and just want to game/do projects/self-improvement after work, though. Which isn't that bad thinking about it.
  - jpollock 10y ago
    In the length of time I spend commuting to work in the morning, people in KW can drive to downtown Toronto to get some fun for the evening. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/University+of+Waterloo,+200+University+Ave+W,+Waterloo,+ON+N2L+3G1,+Canada/University+of+Toronto+-+St.+George+Campus,+27+King's+College+Cir,+Toronto,+ON+M5S,+Canada/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x882bf6ad02edccff:0xdd9df23996268e17!1m2!1m1!1s0x882b34b8f331fd9b:0x8d1d9bb6765a76f7!3e0?sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr26v8ocrSAhUqwlQKHansCmoQox0IJTAA https://www.google.com/maps/dir/University+of+Waterloo,+200+...
    - jlgosse 10y ago
      I wouldn't say 1h46m each way is something many people would want to do very often - why not just live in Toronto?
  - edblarney 10y ago
    This is a stark reality. For a Canadian, Waterloo might be ok. For most Americans, it would be like moving to Alaska. I tried to hire into Waterloo, and for Americans, Canada in general is a really tough sell. We brought in some Americans, most of them kept their homes in wherever. We hired a bunch and let them live wherever, they flew in every few weeks. It was far less than ideal. That said, it might be better than many places in the US - but this is where California has such a massive advantage.
- parthdesai 10y ago
  There isn't much to do there outside of work!
  - rocky1138 10y ago
    Very true. I dislike places that only have food/restaurants in their list of why you'd want to visit there.
  - kps 10y ago
    And all that time to fill up when you can afford to live ten minutes from work. I don't know how people cope.
  - chongli 10y ago
    Tons to do in Toronto though and it's just a stone's throw away!
    - potatolicious 10y ago
      Agree that Toronto is lovely, but 113km is a curious definition for "stone's throw"... Especially given the 401's proclivity for stop-and-go traffic...
      - chongli 10y ago
        You can often make the trip in under an hour. Similar to the trip from Berkeley to SF!
        potatolicious 10y ago
        I went to Waterloo for school and used to make the drive to TO regularly - under an hour is a very optimistic estimate that probably relies on some fortuitous celestial alignment. In any case I also wouldn't describe Berkeley-SF as a "stone's throw" either... Which is actually a great example - many a person has moved out of SF for Berkeley, because "I'll be around all the time, it's not that far" - only to be rarely seen again. The "work/live in Loo, hang out in TO" thing is mostly theoretical, though I'm sure you can find a few people who actually do it.
- hackerboos 10y ago
  Agreed. Come to Canada. We have a sane immigration system and we don't have right-wing parties breathing down our necks to shut it down.
- run4yourlives2 10y ago
  Nothing wrong with KW, but compared to Vancouver?
ever1 10y ago
And Paris ?
tarikjn 10y ago
Let's not forget the upcoming European elections. Bar that, even as a French citizen, I would actually give my vote to Amsterdam as being probably one of the best places to start a startup in Europe.
Mythanar 10y ago
Dublin? Sure. Amsterdam - if you believe you can grow decent startup scene in location with 52% income taxes and 1.2% wealth tax and 21% VAT, I have a bridge to sell you. Silicon Valley happened before the tax madness, and there is now net wealth outflow to lower-tax locations.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  52% income tax is only on income > 67K euros, below that it is tiered with the next level down being 40%. The wealth tax is subject to an exemption of the first 25K. Also important: there is no capital gains tax and healthcare costs are ~100 euros / month no matter what you earn.
  - kintamanimatt 10y ago
    It is still pretty high though. Maybe not the highest, but high enough that a lot of people will take into account when deciding for or against Amsterdam.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      It's high when considered in isolation, but that's silly. When comparing places you should consider all costs, not just the local taxes.
  - tormeh 10y ago
    No capital gains tax? Wow. So rich people in The Netherlands pay no taxes? Or is there a wealth tax?
    - cortesoft 10y ago
      1.2% according to the grandparent comment.
    - cr1895 10y ago
      https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/individuals/tax_arrangements/living_abroad/non_resident_taxpayer_status/income_in_multiple_boxes2/assets_in_box_3 https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/...
drewrv 10y ago
Vancouver seems like the most sensible place for a satellite office, due to proximity to San Francisco.
- pedalpete 10y ago
  Also proximity to Asia and Europe flying over the top of the world makes Europe surprisingly close.
madeofpalk 10y ago
Sydney! To your note about people avoiding the US - I've already seen this for personal travel. I was planning on doing a bit of a holiday around the country, but now the US just leaves such a sour place in my mouth and I would much rather go elsewhere. A number of my friends have made the same decision.
- herbst 10y ago
  Same here. As "digitalnomad" curious to see the world the last place i am going to visit is the U.S. if even. Not only the visa situation, but also the unstable political situation, racism and violence let me stay away. This coming from someone currently in malaysia
edblarney 10y ago
"If only to protest with their wallet." Except that 'the wallet' is in the US, not somewhere else. I say this even as a Canadian. The money is not here.
- herbst 10y ago
  As swiss resident i have no idea what you are talking about? Money in the us? :)
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Yes. If you want to start a startup, it requires excess liquidity among a group of individuals willing to take risk. In Montreal, there are very few high-net worth individuals, and almost nobody invests 100K chunks in small businesses. In America, particularly the Silicon Valley, there are tons of wealthy, and semi-wealthy people who back projects. A 'simple idea' can get you $2M in Angel funding ($100K cheques by high net-worth individuals) in the Valley, while it would get you laughed out of the room in Montreal. And that's just the start. The same for later stages. There are few later-stage funds in all of Canada, and almost zero big acquirers to 'end the funnel'. Both exist amply in the US, specifically the Valley, creating and end-to-end system for entrepreneurialism. The same problem exists in Europe to a lesser degree, which is why there are so few big startups that come out of there.
    - herbst 10y ago
      Honestly i dont see the point of big funding anyway. As entrepreneur myself i rather do it myself, ask friends or even take a credit but keep my company and go for small growth. Its a american thing i think to think that a company has to start big, and sure for social media things this is a very relevant factor but for everything else meh.

rocky1138 10y ago

Why not Waterloo? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/kitchener-waterloo-startup/article25558263/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/kitchener-waterloo...

grigory 10y ago
Having spent a few years in KW, I have a feeling it might be difficult to convince people to move there.
- mikepurvis 10y ago
  How long ago? I've been here 12 years (first school, now work), and it's changed a lot, almost all for the better. There's a decent arts/music scene, a dozen good restaurants, affordable housing, lots of new construction, light rail coming online next year.
  - sdflkd 10y ago
    Not much to do in Waterloo. It's good if you're introverted and just want to game/do projects/self-improvement after work, though. Which isn't that bad thinking about it.
- jpollock 10y ago
  In the length of time I spend commuting to work in the morning, people in KW can drive to downtown Toronto to get some fun for the evening. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/University+of+Waterloo,+200+University+Ave+W,+Waterloo,+ON+N2L+3G1,+Canada/University+of+Toronto+-+St.+George+Campus,+27+King's+College+Cir,+Toronto,+ON+M5S,+Canada/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x882bf6ad02edccff:0xdd9df23996268e17!1m2!1m1!1s0x882b34b8f331fd9b:0x8d1d9bb6765a76f7!3e0?sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr26v8ocrSAhUqwlQKHansCmoQox0IJTAA https://www.google.com/maps/dir/University+of+Waterloo,+200+...
  - jlgosse 10y ago
    I wouldn't say 1h46m each way is something many people would want to do very often - why not just live in Toronto?
- edblarney 10y ago
  This is a stark reality. For a Canadian, Waterloo might be ok. For most Americans, it would be like moving to Alaska. I tried to hire into Waterloo, and for Americans, Canada in general is a really tough sell. We brought in some Americans, most of them kept their homes in wherever. We hired a bunch and let them live wherever, they flew in every few weeks. It was far less than ideal. That said, it might be better than many places in the US - but this is where California has such a massive advantage.
parthdesai 10y ago
There isn't much to do there outside of work!
- rocky1138 10y ago
  Very true. I dislike places that only have food/restaurants in their list of why you'd want to visit there.
- kps 10y ago
  And all that time to fill up when you can afford to live ten minutes from work. I don't know how people cope.
- chongli 10y ago
  Tons to do in Toronto though and it's just a stone's throw away!
  - potatolicious 10y ago
    Agree that Toronto is lovely, but 113km is a curious definition for "stone's throw"... Especially given the 401's proclivity for stop-and-go traffic...
    - chongli 10y ago
      You can often make the trip in under an hour. Similar to the trip from Berkeley to SF!
      - potatolicious 10y ago
        I went to Waterloo for school and used to make the drive to TO regularly - under an hour is a very optimistic estimate that probably relies on some fortuitous celestial alignment. In any case I also wouldn't describe Berkeley-SF as a "stone's throw" either... Which is actually a great example - many a person has moved out of SF for Berkeley, because "I'll be around all the time, it's not that far" - only to be rarely seen again. The "work/live in Loo, hang out in TO" thing is mostly theoretical, though I'm sure you can find a few people who actually do it.
hackerboos 10y ago
Agreed. Come to Canada. We have a sane immigration system and we don't have right-wing parties breathing down our necks to shut it down.
run4yourlives2 10y ago
Nothing wrong with KW, but compared to Vancouver?

ever1 10y ago

And Paris ?

tarikjn 10y ago

Let's not forget the upcoming European elections. Bar that, even as a French citizen, I would actually give my vote to Amsterdam as being probably one of the best places to start a startup in Europe.

Mythanar 10y ago

Dublin? Sure. Amsterdam - if you believe you can grow decent startup scene in location with 52% income taxes and 1.2% wealth tax and 21% VAT, I have a bridge to sell you. Silicon Valley happened before the tax madness, and there is now net wealth outflow to lower-tax locations.

jacquesm 10y ago
52% income tax is only on income > 67K euros, below that it is tiered with the next level down being 40%. The wealth tax is subject to an exemption of the first 25K. Also important: there is no capital gains tax and healthcare costs are ~100 euros / month no matter what you earn.
- kintamanimatt 10y ago
  It is still pretty high though. Maybe not the highest, but high enough that a lot of people will take into account when deciding for or against Amsterdam.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    It's high when considered in isolation, but that's silly. When comparing places you should consider all costs, not just the local taxes.
- tormeh 10y ago
  No capital gains tax? Wow. So rich people in The Netherlands pay no taxes? Or is there a wealth tax?
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    1.2% according to the grandparent comment.
  - cr1895 10y ago
    https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/individuals/tax_arrangements/living_abroad/non_resident_taxpayer_status/income_in_multiple_boxes2/assets_in_box_3 https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/...

drewrv 10y ago

Vancouver seems like the most sensible place for a satellite office, due to proximity to San Francisco.

pedalpete 10y ago
Also proximity to Asia and Europe flying over the top of the world makes Europe surprisingly close.

madeofpalk 10y ago

Sydney! To your note about people avoiding the US - I've already seen this for personal travel. I was planning on doing a bit of a holiday around the country, but now the US just leaves such a sour place in my mouth and I would much rather go elsewhere. A number of my friends have made the same decision.

herbst 10y ago
Same here. As "digitalnomad" curious to see the world the last place i am going to visit is the U.S. if even. Not only the visa situation, but also the unstable political situation, racism and violence let me stay away. This coming from someone currently in malaysia

edblarney 10y ago

"If only to protest with their wallet." Except that 'the wallet' is in the US, not somewhere else. I say this even as a Canadian. The money is not here.

herbst 10y ago
As swiss resident i have no idea what you are talking about? Money in the us? :)
- edblarney 10y ago
  Yes. If you want to start a startup, it requires excess liquidity among a group of individuals willing to take risk. In Montreal, there are very few high-net worth individuals, and almost nobody invests 100K chunks in small businesses. In America, particularly the Silicon Valley, there are tons of wealthy, and semi-wealthy people who back projects. A 'simple idea' can get you $2M in Angel funding ($100K cheques by high net-worth individuals) in the Valley, while it would get you laughed out of the room in Montreal. And that's just the start. The same for later stages. There are few later-stage funds in all of Canada, and almost zero big acquirers to 'end the funnel'. Both exist amply in the US, specifically the Valley, creating and end-to-end system for entrepreneurialism. The same problem exists in Europe to a lesser degree, which is why there are so few big startups that come out of there.
  - herbst 10y ago
    Honestly i dont see the point of big funding anyway. As entrepreneur myself i rather do it myself, ask friends or even take a credit but keep my company and go for small growth. Its a american thing i think to think that a company has to start big, and sure for social media things this is a very relevant factor but for everything else meh.