7 ms·

A subterranean world of water offers a glimpse of Ramla’s past

77 points by hwayern 10y ago

nkoren 10y ago
"We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes. You can find out more about BBC Worldwide and its digital activities at www.bbcworldwide.com." Damnit, I'm hitting this at least once a day on HN. It's the absolute stupidest thing to have to use a webcache or proxy to view BBC content. There's no excuse for this. I mean, there is an excuse for it, but it's ridiculous.
tomhoward 10y ago
Archive link for UK readers: http://archive.is/juV7w http://archive.is/juV7w
Xeoncross 10y ago
> The Pool of the Arches allows visitors to relive the city’s glorious past. Caliph Harun al Rashid, who commissioned the pool, ruled during the Golden Age of Islam, when economics, science and culture flourished from the western edge of the empire in Spain all the way into Asia. The significance and accomplishments of this period became clear as our boat glided through the dark water under the tall arches, still standing after more than 1,200 years. I know a cistern is a very neat thing to discover. I personally want to see it now. However, I can't help think that this is blown out of proportions. People were not idiots 1,000 years (and longer) ago. I'm glad the people of Ramla were able to build cisterns - but I fail to see how that confirms this shows "The significance and accomplishments of this period". edit: Thank you, the click-bait link title has been updated
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Yep last time I've checked the Roman aqueducts are still there and well the pyramids are also there (unless you think Stargate is an accurate historic account of events). People weren't stupid, and building big whilst labor intensive isn't particularly hard.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    It's plenty hard in an age before mechanization. You have to: -source materials and have them delivered -employ expert engineers and craftsmen -manage the financial needs of a project without electronic communication -ensure safety without the sophisticated techniques and supplies we take for granted in construction today (hard hats?) It's worth noting that the great pyramid of Giza was actually the third attempt, after the first pyramid collapsed under construction and the second had to be "bent" to avoid collapse as well. So I think it's fair to say that big building was actually quite difficult, even for seemingly simple projects.
  - mkaziz 10y ago
    We marvel at those aqueducts and pyramids in the same way we marvel at this. WE shouldn't pooh-pah one accomplishment just because another exists that we're culturally more familiar with.
    - vilmosi 10y ago
      The aqueducts and pyramids are way older than this though.
- trothamel 10y ago
  Compare, for example, the Basilica Cistern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_Cistern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_Cistern It was built in Constantinople maybe 2 centuries earlier, and one would think that the technology persisted.
  - yawz 10y ago
    My favorite historical place in Istanbul.
  - 11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
    It's so obvious, I'm embarrassed to say it, but I can't help myself. The Mines of Moria.
    - Xeoncross 10y ago
      I don't remember anything in my history book about the Roman / Orc wars.
      - foota 10y ago
        Of course, the winners wrote the history books.
- tmp12345 10y ago
  I like this documentary if your are interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8HnvuKbAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8HnvuKbAo
- digikata 10y ago
  I think it's representative of the ability of a civilization at that point in time, to think in the long term, having the capability to join knowledge with economic resources through the will to improve the lives of people. It brings the modern day into stark contrast, where we seem to have many critical areas where we are awash with knowledge that is not meeting up with the economic resources and the will to make progress. This seems to be a problem both at a grand scale, climate change, and more local scales like the Oroville dam. As a technology alone, the cistern is neat, but the building of it, and later abandonment has maybe more to tell us in the long run.
- e40 10y ago
  I didn't see it in a quick search: how did these people 1,000 years ago store water without it becoming contaminated?
- aaron695 10y ago
  We know how to build buildings kilometers tall, but we don't. We know how to go to the moon, and have gone to the moon, but we don't. We are not currently idiots, but I hope the future can be referred to as more 'significant and accomplished' It's not about the tech, it's about society getting together and doing stuff.
partycoder 10y ago
In 1258, after the Siege of Baghdad by the mongols, the golden age of Islam ended. Scholars were killed, buildings were sacked, infrastructure was destroyed. Islamic Spain (Al-Andalus) survived temporarily. In Spain, the city of Cordoba in Andalusia was objectively the most advanced in all of Europe. After Al-Andalus was lost to Europeans, the Latin translations of the 12th century occurred. Those Latin translations, which were carried out in great part by the Toledo School of Translators, were then used by European scholars to establish the next generation of education: the founders of Oxford, Copernicus, etc. would not exist as we know them if it wasn't for such translations. They did a great job in passing the torch of knowledge to the West. Then, during the Crusades, there was no intention with sympathizing with them, and their contributions to our culture started being erased from history. Lately there has been a little bit of more justice in the way history is presented, but there is work to do. The translations of the 12th century were necessary for the Renaissance to occur.
- truetraveller 10y ago
  Why is this person being downvoted? Let's face it, the West in general does a great job of not giving credit to Muslims as it should. Chemistry, Algebra, Algorithms, Astronomy, the Scientific Method, etc.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - DarkKomunalec 10y ago
    Yes, we should be more grateful Muslims attacked and conquered Spain, taking it from those evil colonialist Europeans.
    - partycoder 10y ago
      You are mixing politics with cultural/scientific advancements. What you say is equivalent to saying that Germans and Soviets do not deserve recognition because they were our adversaries.
  - 10y ago
jlebrech 10y ago
The title should say "Arabic golden age" the secular attributes alone of the Arab culture created that golden age. In fact the golden age ENDED for religious reasons (just like the Catholic church did with Galileo for example) before the Mongols invaded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc and http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marginoferr/2014/06/05/lets-stop-talking-about-the-islamic-golden-age/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marginoferr/2014/06/05/lets-sto...
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Secularism is a modern construct that can't be ahistorically projected to make past societies conform to our notions of modernity.
  - jlebrech 10y ago
    secularism is what people do despite any religiosity
- pm90 10y ago
  Its not as simple as that. I will reply later with a more detailed response but a common religion most certainly helped the Islamic empires (whether Arabs or Persians or Mughals) immensely by providing an almost contiguous corridor of co-coreligionists stretching from Anatolia all the way to India; this greatly facilitated trade.
  - jlebrech 10y ago
    Islam helped drive large projects that wouldn't have been completed in one's life time. One admirable attribute of Islam is that they can plan ahead like the west use to do with tunnels and bridges for example, nowadays projects are not planned to take more than 20 years, in the Muslim world they still are.
    - kissickas 10y ago
      Does that have anything to do with Islam or more with autocracy? I'm not being snarky, I live in Saudi Arabia and certainly see the benefits of having an autocratic government for some things. I'm not sure religion plays a bigger role here in planning than it would anywhere else, though.
cjcenizal 10y ago
This article reminds me of a book written by Kim Stanley Robinson, "The Years of Rice and Salt". It's a historical fiction which explores a history in which the bubonic plague wiped out Europe, precluding Western civilization as we know it. The cultural and religious vacuum left behind is filled by Islam, Buddhism, and the Chinese dynasties. Robinson explores the evolution of humanity over the next 600 years under these influences in beautiful detail -- it's an amazing read!
- jdhn 10y ago
  I second this recommendation. If you're a person who enjoys historical fiction, you'll love this book. I found it a tad difficult at first, but it quickly sucks you in.
- Arizhel 10y ago
  To be pedantic, that's not "historical fiction", that's "alternate history fiction". Historical fiction is like the books by Ken Follett, about medieval Europe. They're set in that time, as we understand it historically, but the characters and events are fictional. What you're describing is alternate history: it's fictional work that assumes something went very differently at some point in the past, and then attempts to extrapolate from there how history turned out. For instance, suppose the US had never gotten involved in WWI; how would the later 20th century have turned out? Or suppose Al Gore had won in 2000; how would things be different now?
- Xeoncross 10y ago
  > The cultural and religious vacuum left behind is filled by Islam, Buddhism, and the Chinese dynasties Sounds like the author assumes Christianity started in Europe and spread to the Middle East. It actually happened the other way around.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dliotev 10y ago
There was no "golden age" in Islam, unless you think that an age of slaughter, murder and enslavement can be called "golden". Sam Harris on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I2WyY_R_hA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I2WyY_R_hA Bill Warner on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  That's an incredibly narrow view of history. Islam was the religion of a pretty varied number of empires over centuries. Within those centuries you will find many examples of brutality as well as real triumphs for humanity. Islam in particular has strong views about supporting the poor in society. You can look at every single culture or person and you are gonna find a mixed bag. It's hard to argue that Islam did not at some point contribute greatly to progress unless you are viewing the actions of people a millennium ago in light of modern morals and knowledge. It's not an objective way of looking at history.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  I'll think for myself rather than slurp down the filthy slop you're a fan of.
- dang 10y ago
  Religious flamewars aren't welcome on HN. We've banned this account.

77 points by hwayern 10y ago

"We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes. You can find out more about BBC Worldwide and its digital activities at www.bbcworldwide.com." Damnit, I'm hitting this at least once a day on HN. It's the absolute stupidest thing to have to use a webcache or proxy to view BBC content. There's no excuse for this. I mean, there is an excuse for it, but it's ridiculous.

tomhoward 10y ago

Archive link for UK readers: http://archive.is/juV7w http://archive.is/juV7w

Xeoncross 10y ago

> The Pool of the Arches allows visitors to relive the city’s glorious past. Caliph Harun al Rashid, who commissioned the pool, ruled during the Golden Age of Islam, when economics, science and culture flourished from the western edge of the empire in Spain all the way into Asia. The significance and accomplishments of this period became clear as our boat glided through the dark water under the tall arches, still standing after more than 1,200 years. I know a cistern is a very neat thing to discover. I personally want to see it now. However, I can't help think that this is blown out of proportions. People were not idiots 1,000 years (and longer) ago. I'm glad the people of Ramla were able to build cisterns - but I fail to see how that confirms this shows "The significance and accomplishments of this period". edit: Thank you, the click-bait link title has been updated

dogma1138 10y ago
Yep last time I've checked the Roman aqueducts are still there and well the pyramids are also there (unless you think Stargate is an accurate historic account of events). People weren't stupid, and building big whilst labor intensive isn't particularly hard.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  It's plenty hard in an age before mechanization. You have to: -source materials and have them delivered -employ expert engineers and craftsmen -manage the financial needs of a project without electronic communication -ensure safety without the sophisticated techniques and supplies we take for granted in construction today (hard hats?) It's worth noting that the great pyramid of Giza was actually the third attempt, after the first pyramid collapsed under construction and the second had to be "bent" to avoid collapse as well. So I think it's fair to say that big building was actually quite difficult, even for seemingly simple projects.
- mkaziz 10y ago
  We marvel at those aqueducts and pyramids in the same way we marvel at this. WE shouldn't pooh-pah one accomplishment just because another exists that we're culturally more familiar with.
  - vilmosi 10y ago
    The aqueducts and pyramids are way older than this though.
trothamel 10y ago
Compare, for example, the Basilica Cistern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_Cistern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_Cistern It was built in Constantinople maybe 2 centuries earlier, and one would think that the technology persisted.
- yawz 10y ago
  My favorite historical place in Istanbul.
- 11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
  It's so obvious, I'm embarrassed to say it, but I can't help myself. The Mines of Moria.
  - Xeoncross 10y ago
    I don't remember anything in my history book about the Roman / Orc wars.
    - foota 10y ago
      Of course, the winners wrote the history books.
tmp12345 10y ago
I like this documentary if your are interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8HnvuKbAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8HnvuKbAo
digikata 10y ago
I think it's representative of the ability of a civilization at that point in time, to think in the long term, having the capability to join knowledge with economic resources through the will to improve the lives of people. It brings the modern day into stark contrast, where we seem to have many critical areas where we are awash with knowledge that is not meeting up with the economic resources and the will to make progress. This seems to be a problem both at a grand scale, climate change, and more local scales like the Oroville dam. As a technology alone, the cistern is neat, but the building of it, and later abandonment has maybe more to tell us in the long run.
e40 10y ago
I didn't see it in a quick search: how did these people 1,000 years ago store water without it becoming contaminated?
aaron695 10y ago
We know how to build buildings kilometers tall, but we don't. We know how to go to the moon, and have gone to the moon, but we don't. We are not currently idiots, but I hope the future can be referred to as more 'significant and accomplished' It's not about the tech, it's about society getting together and doing stuff.

partycoder 10y ago

In 1258, after the Siege of Baghdad by the mongols, the golden age of Islam ended. Scholars were killed, buildings were sacked, infrastructure was destroyed. Islamic Spain (Al-Andalus) survived temporarily. In Spain, the city of Cordoba in Andalusia was objectively the most advanced in all of Europe. After Al-Andalus was lost to Europeans, the Latin translations of the 12th century occurred. Those Latin translations, which were carried out in great part by the Toledo School of Translators, were then used by European scholars to establish the next generation of education: the founders of Oxford, Copernicus, etc. would not exist as we know them if it wasn't for such translations. They did a great job in passing the torch of knowledge to the West. Then, during the Crusades, there was no intention with sympathizing with them, and their contributions to our culture started being erased from history. Lately there has been a little bit of more justice in the way history is presented, but there is work to do. The translations of the 12th century were necessary for the Renaissance to occur.

truetraveller 10y ago
Why is this person being downvoted? Let's face it, the West in general does a great job of not giving credit to Muslims as it should. Chemistry, Algebra, Algorithms, Astronomy, the Scientific Method, etc.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- DarkKomunalec 10y ago
  Yes, we should be more grateful Muslims attacked and conquered Spain, taking it from those evil colonialist Europeans.
  - partycoder 10y ago
    You are mixing politics with cultural/scientific advancements. What you say is equivalent to saying that Germans and Soviets do not deserve recognition because they were our adversaries.
- 10y ago

jlebrech 10y ago

The title should say "Arabic golden age" the secular attributes alone of the Arab culture created that golden age. In fact the golden age ENDED for religious reasons (just like the Catholic church did with Galileo for example) before the Mongols invaded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc and http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marginoferr/2014/06/05/lets-stop-talking-about-the-islamic-golden-age/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marginoferr/2014/06/05/lets-sto...

alphonsegaston 10y ago
Secularism is a modern construct that can't be ahistorically projected to make past societies conform to our notions of modernity.
- jlebrech 10y ago
  secularism is what people do despite any religiosity
pm90 10y ago
Its not as simple as that. I will reply later with a more detailed response but a common religion most certainly helped the Islamic empires (whether Arabs or Persians or Mughals) immensely by providing an almost contiguous corridor of co-coreligionists stretching from Anatolia all the way to India; this greatly facilitated trade.
- jlebrech 10y ago
  Islam helped drive large projects that wouldn't have been completed in one's life time. One admirable attribute of Islam is that they can plan ahead like the west use to do with tunnels and bridges for example, nowadays projects are not planned to take more than 20 years, in the Muslim world they still are.
  - kissickas 10y ago
    Does that have anything to do with Islam or more with autocracy? I'm not being snarky, I live in Saudi Arabia and certainly see the benefits of having an autocratic government for some things. I'm not sure religion plays a bigger role here in planning than it would anywhere else, though.

cjcenizal 10y ago

This article reminds me of a book written by Kim Stanley Robinson, "The Years of Rice and Salt". It's a historical fiction which explores a history in which the bubonic plague wiped out Europe, precluding Western civilization as we know it. The cultural and religious vacuum left behind is filled by Islam, Buddhism, and the Chinese dynasties. Robinson explores the evolution of humanity over the next 600 years under these influences in beautiful detail -- it's an amazing read!

jdhn 10y ago
I second this recommendation. If you're a person who enjoys historical fiction, you'll love this book. I found it a tad difficult at first, but it quickly sucks you in.
Arizhel 10y ago
To be pedantic, that's not "historical fiction", that's "alternate history fiction". Historical fiction is like the books by Ken Follett, about medieval Europe. They're set in that time, as we understand it historically, but the characters and events are fictional. What you're describing is alternate history: it's fictional work that assumes something went very differently at some point in the past, and then attempts to extrapolate from there how history turned out. For instance, suppose the US had never gotten involved in WWI; how would the later 20th century have turned out? Or suppose Al Gore had won in 2000; how would things be different now?
Xeoncross 10y ago
> The cultural and religious vacuum left behind is filled by Islam, Buddhism, and the Chinese dynasties Sounds like the author assumes Christianity started in Europe and spread to the Middle East. It actually happened the other way around.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dliotev 10y ago

There was no "golden age" in Islam, unless you think that an age of slaughter, murder and enslavement can be called "golden". Sam Harris on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I2WyY_R_hA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I2WyY_R_hA Bill Warner on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXtTwNvWXc

aaron-lebo 10y ago
That's an incredibly narrow view of history. Islam was the religion of a pretty varied number of empires over centuries. Within those centuries you will find many examples of brutality as well as real triumphs for humanity. Islam in particular has strong views about supporting the poor in society. You can look at every single culture or person and you are gonna find a mixed bag. It's hard to argue that Islam did not at some point contribute greatly to progress unless you are viewing the actions of people a millennium ago in light of modern morals and knowledge. It's not an objective way of looking at history.
wavefunction 10y ago
I'll think for myself rather than slurp down the filthy slop you're a fan of.
dang 10y ago
Religious flamewars aren't welcome on HN. We've banned this account.