3 ms·

> Selling professional-grade gear to people with no intention of using it professionally isn’t exactly a new trick in marketing, as the makers of SUVs, digital

> Selling professional-grade gear to people with no intention of using it professionally isn’t exactly a new trick in marketing, as the makers of SUVs, digital cameras and headphones can tell you. A ton of companies started out selling legitimately tough things and then turned into just another logo on semi-acceptable products. The Hummer H1 was a legitimately strong vehicle, and could easily climb a 60% slope and travel over actually tough terrain - with 16" of ground clearance on a 72" tall vehicle. The H2 was a disgustingly fuel inefficient large truck, and the H3 was just a standard pickup with an ugly grille. Some of my friends who explore/climb/etc all the time used to buy North Face gear; now, it's mostly another brand for college students. The last thing I personally bought from North Face was a jacket a few years ago - I wore the jacket a handful of times and into the closet it went. Anyone else know more brands that did this? Start out selling gear for pros and then use that image to sell to people who just like the logo? I'd also love to hear about brands that aren't just clothing.

newmanships 10y ago
Abercrombie & Fitch completely changed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abercrombie_%26_Fitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abercrombie_%26_Fit...
eigenvector 10y ago
Every brand goes through this cycle, although they don't all end up cannibalizing their original high-end products. You start by making gear out of the best available materials and with high-quality construction. You sell direct to the customer and have minimal marketing spend. It's expensive because of the materials that, in the modern era, are engineered synthetics you have licence from textile companies like Gore, Schoeller, Polartec, PrimaLoft, etc. and the low volume, but at least you don't have retailers and middlemen taking a cut of your revenue. Your gear becomes more popular, starts to get mindshare within the climbing, hiking, skiing, etc. communities. But at certain point, you've sold every climber a great jacket that stands up to years of abuse. Now you have two options. First, you can start making more types of items. You go from hard shells to insulated jackets to footwear to tents to sleeping bags. You sell the guy who already likes your jacket a few pairs of gloves, pants, etc. But that also scales up your costs, because you've got to sink time and money into designing these new items and learning to properly use new materials. So how do you make more money? You increase your addressable market by putting your brand on down-market items. You don't need to do any R&D, you just replace the top quality materials in your existing products with cheaper alternatives and outsource the manufacturing to Bangladesh. To reduce prices, you stop doing quality control. Not only are you cutting your retail price of a jacket maybe from $700 to $200, your actual revenue is now going from $700 to maybe $50 because you're selling at Walmart, Target, etc., but your volume goes from thousands to millions. You still sell your original high-quality products, but they aren't making nearly as much money as the cheap stuff anymore. At some point the original owners of the company exit, sell it to a larger company or hedge fund, and the cycle accelerates further. They get rid of the high-end products and axe the R&D team, seeing it as a cost centre. It's an unavoidable part of trying to sustain your growth curve. Some companies have resisted it and simply stayed small and high-quality, but it takes a special type of founder. A good example is Western Mountaineering, which continues to make top-quality low-volume down products and refuses to branch out into selling everything and the kitchen sink with their name on it. http://www.westernmountaineering.com/about/ http://www.westernmountaineering.com/about/
- owenversteeg 10y ago
  Yep, in an ideal world there would be two lines of products - the "wait for the bus" jacket and the actual tough jacket. In the real world, this sometimes happens but after a while it's seen as a cost center and killed, like you say. One example of this (that hasn't been killed yet) is LL Bean's Katahdin Iron Works stuff. It's excellent quality for the money and has held up unlike any other clothing I've bought recently. That's not to say their regular stuff is lower quality, however. Western Mountaineering has pretty good quality stuff from what I've heard. Personally, my favorite piece of outerwear is a vest I got in Ukraine - handmade, for a couple bucks. Extremely warm, and no fancy micromaterials but it works and it works well. I'm wondering what other little gems of high-quality clothing at a low cost are out there - I imagine sherpas would know.
chrisbennet 10y ago
Eddie Bauer used to make expedition clothing. "In 1960, Eddie Bauer and William Niemi took on their sons, Eddie C. Bauer and William Niemi Jr. as partners in the company. Eddie Bauer went on to supply his equipment for the American K2 Himalayan Expedition and several journeys through Antarctica. In 1963, James W. Whittaker, the first American to climb Mount Everest, was wearing an Eddie Bauer parka. He wore Bauer's products during his whole expedition.[8]" Wikipedia

newmanships 10y ago

Abercrombie & Fitch completely changed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abercrombie_%26_Fitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abercrombie_%26_Fit...

eigenvector 10y ago

Every brand goes through this cycle, although they don't all end up cannibalizing their original high-end products. You start by making gear out of the best available materials and with high-quality construction. You sell direct to the customer and have minimal marketing spend. It's expensive because of the materials that, in the modern era, are engineered synthetics you have licence from textile companies like Gore, Schoeller, Polartec, PrimaLoft, etc. and the low volume, but at least you don't have retailers and middlemen taking a cut of your revenue. Your gear becomes more popular, starts to get mindshare within the climbing, hiking, skiing, etc. communities. But at certain point, you've sold every climber a great jacket that stands up to years of abuse. Now you have two options. First, you can start making more types of items. You go from hard shells to insulated jackets to footwear to tents to sleeping bags. You sell the guy who already likes your jacket a few pairs of gloves, pants, etc. But that also scales up your costs, because you've got to sink time and money into designing these new items and learning to properly use new materials. So how do you make more money? You increase your addressable market by putting your brand on down-market items. You don't need to do any R&D, you just replace the top quality materials in your existing products with cheaper alternatives and outsource the manufacturing to Bangladesh. To reduce prices, you stop doing quality control. Not only are you cutting your retail price of a jacket maybe from $700 to $200, your actual revenue is now going from $700 to maybe $50 because you're selling at Walmart, Target, etc., but your volume goes from thousands to millions. You still sell your original high-quality products, but they aren't making nearly as much money as the cheap stuff anymore. At some point the original owners of the company exit, sell it to a larger company or hedge fund, and the cycle accelerates further. They get rid of the high-end products and axe the R&D team, seeing it as a cost centre. It's an unavoidable part of trying to sustain your growth curve. Some companies have resisted it and simply stayed small and high-quality, but it takes a special type of founder. A good example is Western Mountaineering, which continues to make top-quality low-volume down products and refuses to branch out into selling everything and the kitchen sink with their name on it. http://www.westernmountaineering.com/about/ http://www.westernmountaineering.com/about/

owenversteeg 10y ago
Yep, in an ideal world there would be two lines of products - the "wait for the bus" jacket and the actual tough jacket. In the real world, this sometimes happens but after a while it's seen as a cost center and killed, like you say. One example of this (that hasn't been killed yet) is LL Bean's Katahdin Iron Works stuff. It's excellent quality for the money and has held up unlike any other clothing I've bought recently. That's not to say their regular stuff is lower quality, however. Western Mountaineering has pretty good quality stuff from what I've heard. Personally, my favorite piece of outerwear is a vest I got in Ukraine - handmade, for a couple bucks. Extremely warm, and no fancy micromaterials but it works and it works well. I'm wondering what other little gems of high-quality clothing at a low cost are out there - I imagine sherpas would know.

chrisbennet 10y ago

Eddie Bauer used to make expedition clothing. "In 1960, Eddie Bauer and William Niemi took on their sons, Eddie C. Bauer and William Niemi Jr. as partners in the company. Eddie Bauer went on to supply his equipment for the American K2 Himalayan Expedition and several journeys through Antarctica. In 1963, James W. Whittaker, the first American to climb Mount Everest, was wearing an Eddie Bauer parka. He wore Bauer's products during his whole expedition.[8]" Wikipedia