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Government is "forcing" very few people. Most people participate in society voluntarily. For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it volu

Government is "forcing" very few people. Most people participate in society voluntarily. For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily. EDIT: I don't follow Hacker News' rules and norms because I'm afraid of being banned, but because I respect the other people here, respect that there need to be rules, and respect our hosts' authority and need to make them. It's something (almost) all learn as children; it's healthy social interaction. Most people are responsible members of their communities. The concept of force applies only to a very few.

piedpiper_ 10y ago
> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily. Yes you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison. Is it going to be Ok to send Bobby to prison because he didn't want to cover Suzi's medical bill?
- hackuser 10y ago
  > you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison No, I don't do them because I don't want to, and because I respect group decisions. I want to pay my bills; I don't want to rip off other people. I don't shoot my neighbor because I'm not a sociopath and like normal, healthy people I very much don't want to do it. I pay my taxes because we took a vote and I respect that and want to do my share. etc. You can get away with a lot and not go to jail. That's not what determines most people's behavior.
white-flame 10y ago
> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily. That sounds like the IRS's shtick about income taxes being "voluntary". From a technical perspective, these decisions are under duress, under threat of legal repercussion, even if you find that choice agreeable and would act in the same way without the law involved.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > From a technical perspective I'm not sure what this means. I'm aware of the theoretical argument. The great majority obey the law because they want to. The threat of jail is actually minor; you can get away with quite a bit.
mindcrime 10y ago
The concept of force applies only to a very few. No, it applies to everybody. That you, by happenstance, voluntarily do something that somebody is trying to coerce you into doing does not negate the threat of force. Your position might change one day when your circumstances change, and then the seemingly benevolent government that you put your faith in may well show its teeth. But those teeth are always lurking, even if they're just out of sight.

piedpiper_ 10y ago

> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily. Yes you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison. Is it going to be Ok to send Bobby to prison because he didn't want to cover Suzi's medical bill?

hackuser 10y ago
> you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison No, I don't do them because I don't want to, and because I respect group decisions. I want to pay my bills; I don't want to rip off other people. I don't shoot my neighbor because I'm not a sociopath and like normal, healthy people I very much don't want to do it. I pay my taxes because we took a vote and I respect that and want to do my share. etc. You can get away with a lot and not go to jail. That's not what determines most people's behavior.

white-flame 10y ago

> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily. That sounds like the IRS's shtick about income taxes being "voluntary". From a technical perspective, these decisions are under duress, under threat of legal repercussion, even if you find that choice agreeable and would act in the same way without the law involved.

hackuser 10y ago
> From a technical perspective I'm not sure what this means. I'm aware of the theoretical argument. The great majority obey the law because they want to. The threat of jail is actually minor; you can get away with quite a bit.

mindcrime 10y ago

The concept of force applies only to a very few. No, it applies to everybody. That you, by happenstance, voluntarily do something that somebody is trying to coerce you into doing does not negate the threat of force. Your position might change one day when your circumstances change, and then the seemingly benevolent government that you put your faith in may well show its teeth. But those teeth are always lurking, even if they're just out of sight.