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It definitely exists. Consider the pay disparity between men who negotiate well versus those who don't. Now look at HR studies that show women rarely negotiate

It definitely exists. Consider the pay disparity between men who negotiate well versus those who don't. Now look at HR studies that show women rarely negotiate (no links to studies from me right now but I have heard this anecdotally from hiring managers and I have read this before in business mags). Do you see how a problem can evolve? Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money than you? Have you asked? There is systemic pay discrimination in development jobs here in Australia so I can only assume it is similar in the US.

joeblow9999 10y ago
this just means there is a negotiation skills gap. there are a million parameters you can compare people on and determine who makes more money in life. good looking people make more on average too. If you're bad at negotiation it has nothing to do with being a man or woman. Are we supposed to nationalize or socialize individual negotiations?
- tghw 10y ago
  Except for two things: 1. Women are expected (societally) to be more accommodating and compliant throughout most aspects of their lives, meaning they have less practice and comfort negotiating. 2. Even when women do negotiate, they end up being penalized for it, probably because of the expectations mentioned in point 1. See http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-th.... Underlying study is here: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    I agree with the parent on negotiating and I think your points are valid too. There's no one individual parameter in this discussion if you're looking to improve. I did see something in the article you noted that I'd like to question though: > that is, when their credentials have already been screened and they are in the interview phase—the focus shifts away from their competence and toward their social skills. That effect is absent for male candidates. I think it's possible that this is not hiring managers trying to screw over candidates or make it harder for women, but it's a likely bias from past experiences based on a team environment where men and women differ because of our inherent differences. Anecdotally, I've only seen women get nasty with other women to the point where it brews and stews and becomes problematic in a team environment. If women don't like men - they seem to navigate that better, perhaps because of your point in #1. Nonetheless, if men don't like other men - many times they'll blow up on each other but it doesn't linger. I've been in physical fights with great friends of mine, we've said nasty things, and in most cases the next day we let it go. Just in the last couple years, I've had to let go several senior women because they were causing stress and anxiety with other women employees. From my experience - it's more likely I'll have a cultural issue with a female (with other females) and it's more likely I'll fire a man due to competence. Navigating cultural problems is much harder than making a decision based on lack of production. Everyone generally understands when people are fired from incompetence. That being said - everyone has their own biases. It's not supposed to enter the picture in hiring but these considerations are often more subtle and are usually in consideration of one's current team and culture they wish to preserve. If you have some really strong personalities, male or female, you might be expressing concerns about social skills because you're trying to avoid a potential clash, not because you're out to get women. I wouldn't hire a male drill sergeant to work with my team which is more laid back and collaborative either.
- drewrv 10y ago
  > this just means there is a negotiation skills gap. What is the cause of the negotiation skills gap? It seems unlikely to me that one gender is just innately better at it than another, and more likely that there's a cultural issue at play with regards to how we treat women.
xor1 10y ago
HR in the US is overwhelmingly women. Maybe it's an issue of women negotiating with other women.
ar15saveslives 10y ago
So why is it a problem? Go ahead and negotiate your salary, why should we (or government?) help you fix your own personality? > Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money than you? BS argument.

joeblow9999 10y ago

this just means there is a negotiation skills gap. there are a million parameters you can compare people on and determine who makes more money in life. good looking people make more on average too. If you're bad at negotiation it has nothing to do with being a man or woman. Are we supposed to nationalize or socialize individual negotiations?

tghw 10y ago
Except for two things: 1. Women are expected (societally) to be more accommodating and compliant throughout most aspects of their lives, meaning they have less practice and comfort negotiating. 2. Even when women do negotiate, they end up being penalized for it, probably because of the expectations mentioned in point 1. See http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-th.... Underlying study is here: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
- exclusiv 10y ago
  I agree with the parent on negotiating and I think your points are valid too. There's no one individual parameter in this discussion if you're looking to improve. I did see something in the article you noted that I'd like to question though: > that is, when their credentials have already been screened and they are in the interview phase—the focus shifts away from their competence and toward their social skills. That effect is absent for male candidates. I think it's possible that this is not hiring managers trying to screw over candidates or make it harder for women, but it's a likely bias from past experiences based on a team environment where men and women differ because of our inherent differences. Anecdotally, I've only seen women get nasty with other women to the point where it brews and stews and becomes problematic in a team environment. If women don't like men - they seem to navigate that better, perhaps because of your point in #1. Nonetheless, if men don't like other men - many times they'll blow up on each other but it doesn't linger. I've been in physical fights with great friends of mine, we've said nasty things, and in most cases the next day we let it go. Just in the last couple years, I've had to let go several senior women because they were causing stress and anxiety with other women employees. From my experience - it's more likely I'll have a cultural issue with a female (with other females) and it's more likely I'll fire a man due to competence. Navigating cultural problems is much harder than making a decision based on lack of production. Everyone generally understands when people are fired from incompetence. That being said - everyone has their own biases. It's not supposed to enter the picture in hiring but these considerations are often more subtle and are usually in consideration of one's current team and culture they wish to preserve. If you have some really strong personalities, male or female, you might be expressing concerns about social skills because you're trying to avoid a potential clash, not because you're out to get women. I wouldn't hire a male drill sergeant to work with my team which is more laid back and collaborative either.
drewrv 10y ago
> this just means there is a negotiation skills gap. What is the cause of the negotiation skills gap? It seems unlikely to me that one gender is just innately better at it than another, and more likely that there's a cultural issue at play with regards to how we treat women.

xor1 10y ago

HR in the US is overwhelmingly women. Maybe it's an issue of women negotiating with other women.

ar15saveslives 10y ago

So why is it a problem? Go ahead and negotiate your salary, why should we (or government?) help you fix your own personality? > Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money than you? BS argument.