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I studied economics in college, and worked with a professor who was researching the "pay gap". We found that adjusting for a number of factors (profession, exp

I studied economics in college, and worked with a professor who was researching the "pay gap". We found that adjusting for a number of factors (profession, experience, education, etc.) the pay gap actually closes significantly. That isn't to say some companies don't have pay gap, but it is largely overblown and often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. tl;dr 70 cents on the dollar is not a real thing when you use your data correctly (at least in USA).

tghw 10y ago
I agree that talking about a $0.7X to the dollar pay gap isn't helpful, since it isn't controlled for a number of factors. But there still is a pay gap of 2-20%, , depending on the industry, attributable only to difference in gender. It's better than it's made out to be, but that there still is a gap is not right.
- xienze 10y ago
  > attributable only to difference in gender. Ehhh you're really gonna need to show me this study, including detailed descriptions of the male and female cohorts showing that every male and female pair in the study are exactly the same age, have the same amount of experience, exact same education level, and work for the same company. Otherwise you can't really claim that the only difference is gender, now can you? The problem is, you can't come up with such a study. Furthermore, the idea that companies are paying women with "exactly the same" skills as men in "exactly the same" positions up to 20% less doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I ever hire a man in that case? I'd rather save 20% off the top. And if I had no choice but to hire a man, why would I pay 20% over the market rate? And how is it that this conspiracy to pay women less exists in every company, in every industry, in every country in the world?
  - rifung 10y ago
    > Furthermore, the idea that companies are paying women with "exactly the same" skills as men in "exactly the same" positions up to 20% less doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I ever hire a man in that case I don't think people typically perceive the issues facing women result from conscious bias. While there are some cases of blatant sexism, my impression is that people consider the more difficult and (hopefully) more common issue to be unconscious bias.
drewrv 10y ago
> often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. Why do these "other factors" push down the pay rate of women by almost 30%? If these other factors were random noise you'd expect them to affect both genders approximately equally. The fact that men work more hours or that women take on more childcare duties does not mean that the pay gap doesn't exist. All it means that it's caused by cultural factors.
- tmnvix 10y ago
  Then it becomes an earnings gap and not a pay gap. I do agree that having an earnings gap is a problem that should be addressed (especially with regard to superannuation). The problem is when we are told that there is a pay gap and that it is due to sexism in the workplace - disallowing discussion of the cultural factors that you highlighted.
- rubicon33 10y ago
  Perhaps because one of the factors is job/title. The 0.70 cent figure, isn't controlling for the work being done. It's a uniform blanket stat, that is severely short sited.
cbhl 10y ago
If men become doctors and women become nurses, or if men become Software Engineers and women become Test Engineers, then there's still something wrong with the world. "Adjusting for profession" ignores the cultural context of terms like "pay gap" -- we come from a world where women couldn't work certain jobs at all.
- RandomOpinion 10y ago
  Since we're talking about various X-ism's today, your prejudice against nurses and test engineers is showing. (Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if I should give up the QA profession for good, even though I prefer it to being a developer.)
  - cbhl 10y ago
    I try my best to be mindful of my unconscious bias with respect to nurses and test engineers. My point is that these roles are typically less paid than doctor and SWE roles. I'm all for having more male nurses and more female doctors and SWEs. I think this is a necessary step to solving the pay inequity gap. It's not obvious to me that nurses should be paid the same hourly rate as doctors and software engineers. My understanding is that it's cheaper to get the education to become a nurse versus being a doctor. But I'm not an expert in this field.
- brighteyes 10y ago
  > If men become doctors and women become nurses, or if men become Software Engineers and women become Test Engineers, then there's still something wrong with the world. Imagine that doctors and nurses were paid the same. Would you still think that? Other than salary, neither being a doctor or a nurse is "better". One is more technical, the other involves more personal contact, but neither of those is better, just different. The same is true for Software Engineers and Test Engineers. It's snobbery to say one is better. We should be lobbying to get nurses paid more.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    Well, nurses do take direction and even orders from doctors.

tghw 10y ago

I agree that talking about a $0.7X to the dollar pay gap isn't helpful, since it isn't controlled for a number of factors. But there still is a pay gap of 2-20%, , depending on the industry, attributable only to difference in gender. It's better than it's made out to be, but that there still is a gap is not right.

xienze 10y ago
> attributable only to difference in gender. Ehhh you're really gonna need to show me this study, including detailed descriptions of the male and female cohorts showing that every male and female pair in the study are exactly the same age, have the same amount of experience, exact same education level, and work for the same company. Otherwise you can't really claim that the only difference is gender, now can you? The problem is, you can't come up with such a study. Furthermore, the idea that companies are paying women with "exactly the same" skills as men in "exactly the same" positions up to 20% less doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I ever hire a man in that case? I'd rather save 20% off the top. And if I had no choice but to hire a man, why would I pay 20% over the market rate? And how is it that this conspiracy to pay women less exists in every company, in every industry, in every country in the world?
- rifung 10y ago
  > Furthermore, the idea that companies are paying women with "exactly the same" skills as men in "exactly the same" positions up to 20% less doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I ever hire a man in that case I don't think people typically perceive the issues facing women result from conscious bias. While there are some cases of blatant sexism, my impression is that people consider the more difficult and (hopefully) more common issue to be unconscious bias.

drewrv 10y ago

> often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. Why do these "other factors" push down the pay rate of women by almost 30%? If these other factors were random noise you'd expect them to affect both genders approximately equally. The fact that men work more hours or that women take on more childcare duties does not mean that the pay gap doesn't exist. All it means that it's caused by cultural factors.

tmnvix 10y ago
Then it becomes an earnings gap and not a pay gap. I do agree that having an earnings gap is a problem that should be addressed (especially with regard to superannuation). The problem is when we are told that there is a pay gap and that it is due to sexism in the workplace - disallowing discussion of the cultural factors that you highlighted.
rubicon33 10y ago
Perhaps because one of the factors is job/title. The 0.70 cent figure, isn't controlling for the work being done. It's a uniform blanket stat, that is severely short sited.

cbhl 10y ago

If men become doctors and women become nurses, or if men become Software Engineers and women become Test Engineers, then there's still something wrong with the world. "Adjusting for profession" ignores the cultural context of terms like "pay gap" -- we come from a world where women couldn't work certain jobs at all.

RandomOpinion 10y ago
Since we're talking about various X-ism's today, your prejudice against nurses and test engineers is showing. (Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if I should give up the QA profession for good, even though I prefer it to being a developer.)
- cbhl 10y ago
  I try my best to be mindful of my unconscious bias with respect to nurses and test engineers. My point is that these roles are typically less paid than doctor and SWE roles. I'm all for having more male nurses and more female doctors and SWEs. I think this is a necessary step to solving the pay inequity gap. It's not obvious to me that nurses should be paid the same hourly rate as doctors and software engineers. My understanding is that it's cheaper to get the education to become a nurse versus being a doctor. But I'm not an expert in this field.
brighteyes 10y ago
> If men become doctors and women become nurses, or if men become Software Engineers and women become Test Engineers, then there's still something wrong with the world. Imagine that doctors and nurses were paid the same. Would you still think that? Other than salary, neither being a doctor or a nurse is "better". One is more technical, the other involves more personal contact, but neither of those is better, just different. The same is true for Software Engineers and Test Engineers. It's snobbery to say one is better. We should be lobbying to get nurses paid more.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  Well, nurses do take direction and even orders from doctors.