3 ms·

A lot of the Common Core math concepts are the same as the Singapore Math concepts. Things like breaking apart numbers, playing with them, grouping and re-organ

A lot of the Common Core math concepts are the same as the Singapore Math concepts. Things like breaking apart numbers, playing with them, grouping and re-organizing them. Singapore math does not try to teach the "standard math algorithms" like long division, instead trying to get students to understand the "why" behind why the division works. The major complaint from parents with this seems to be they can't understand it. But that's exactly the point: their kids are supposed to be getting a more rigorous education (in the sense of understanding vs. being able to find an answer). Another key problem: in the US, a lot of our math educators (especially at the elementary level) really don't like math. At the end of the day, the teacher has to explain, assign and grade the curriculum. If they don't understand the core concepts, or don't like teaching them (for instance, they know how to do the carrying-digits multiplication, but never have played with breaking up numbers to add them), they can't teach those concepts effectively. And we put nowhere near the amount of time or money into training our existing teachers as Singapore does. Common Core is an attempt to provide common concepts and training, so we can focus on making teachers better at areas they struggle with. But you can't do that if there's no will or resources to improve.

btilly 10y ago
A large part of success is not having good ideas, it is in having good execution. Singapore Math has had years of refinement to get where it is. Common Core is just starting down that road. And for the record, Singapore Math absolutely does teach "standard math algorithms". They just build up to them in pieces so that the algorithm will be dead obvious when they finally present it. There is a world of difference between this and confusing kids with 3 different algorithms, leaving them with no idea which is which or how to keep them straight. But now we come to this... The major complaint from parents with this seems to be they can't understand it. But that's exactly the point: their kids are supposed to be getting a more rigorous education (in the sense of understanding vs. being able to find an answer). Excuse my language for a moment. Do you have any fucking idea how condescending it is to receive this type of bullshit response to my complaint? I'd be willing to bet money that my background in and understanding of math is more extensive than yours, and CERTAINLY more so than the vast majority of proponents of Common Core that I see this from. Should you disagree, please provide evidence of your graduate degrees in math, placement in the top 100 on the Putnam, published research papers, or public tutorials explaining complex math concepts on par with http://www.elem.com/~btilly/kelly-criterion/ http://www.elem.com/~btilly/kelly-criterion/ or http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/ http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/. The problem is NOT that my son's ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER is giving him a MORE RIGOROUS math education than I received. It is that she FAILED TO TEACH him. Full. Stop. She FAILED to TEACH him. Even so, on the standardized tests that we use to measure this fucking bullshit, HE WAS BETTER THAN 95% OF KIDS HIS AGE IN CALIFORNIA. This was true DESPITE his lacking basic skills like long multiplication! In other words he is what Common Core proponents will cite AS A GODDAMNED SUCCESS!!! And yet I had to spend my fucking time and money to fix their failure. And not, I assure you, due to any lack of ability on his part. His scores relative to other California children are a testament to THAT fact. Language warning off. Please read my rant multiple times, and try to put yourself into my shoes. And hopefully you'll think twice before dismissing other people's feedback in such a condescending manner.
- jacobolus 10y ago
  You might want to re-read the conversation sometime when you’re in a generous mood. From my outsider perspective, the comment you are replying to is entirely reasonable and not personal (“The major complaint from parents [..] seems to be” is not the same as “your complaint right here”), and then you flew off the handle and started cursing the commenter and your son’s teacher in all caps. P.S. this “If we want to actually fix elementary math education, that would be simple.” is a pretty ridiculous statement, unless by “simple” you mean something like, «Create a new job for elementary school math teachers; hire well qualified candidates; give them rigorous teacher training; pay them much better, provide a longer career ladder, give them more autonomy, and show them dramatically more respect than currently; and reorganize the whole school day to give the new math teachers time for introspection, collaboration, and professional development. While we’re at it, fix and improve school facilities, and make sure every school/teacher has the resources they need.» In that case, sure, “simple”. (Note that the specific curriculum used has little to do with any of this.)
  - btilly 10y ago
    If you read it carefully, "the major complaint from parents" is one of my top complaints. I simply had been trying to be polite and analytical in other posts, but seeing the usual putdown thrown out there caused me to see red. If it wasn't the stock way of ignoring complaints for Common Core, I'm sure that I would have responded differently.
- mjmahone17 10y ago
  I'm sorry I belittled your experience and frustration. I didn't intend to do that, or to say your problems with your child's math education aren't real problems. My response was coming from talking extensively with teachers responsible for implementing common core. Their biggest complaints are not coming from top-100 mathematicians. I recognize you are angry your child isn't being taught well. And that the standards and expectations, both with what your child will learn and what teachers will be capable of teaching, aren't up to snuff. I agree with you. But for educators, that is not the typical complaint (this may not be true amongst you and your friends and family, though). Common core's curriculum can be good while the education produced from teachers trying to implement it is bad. I'd place the blame primarily on the process we use for training and incentivizing our elementary teachers: we don't treat math competency as a requirement, we don't provide enough support to implementing new curriculums, and we don't provide good teachers with the authority to enforce real standards. No matter what curriculum people try to use, the teacher-support problem needs to be fixed. Common core is not the real enemy. And it would be great if part of the support we gave to teachers was paying people like you to provide training to them, and helping those teachers who don't like teaching math learn what challenging and achievable standards actually are.

btilly 10y ago

A large part of success is not having good ideas, it is in having good execution. Singapore Math has had years of refinement to get where it is. Common Core is just starting down that road. And for the record, Singapore Math absolutely does teach "standard math algorithms". They just build up to them in pieces so that the algorithm will be dead obvious when they finally present it. There is a world of difference between this and confusing kids with 3 different algorithms, leaving them with no idea which is which or how to keep them straight. But now we come to this... The major complaint from parents with this seems to be they can't understand it. But that's exactly the point: their kids are supposed to be getting a more rigorous education (in the sense of understanding vs. being able to find an answer). Excuse my language for a moment. Do you have any fucking idea how condescending it is to receive this type of bullshit response to my complaint? I'd be willing to bet money that my background in and understanding of math is more extensive than yours, and CERTAINLY more so than the vast majority of proponents of Common Core that I see this from. Should you disagree, please provide evidence of your graduate degrees in math, placement in the top 100 on the Putnam, published research papers, or public tutorials explaining complex math concepts on par with http://www.elem.com/~btilly/kelly-criterion/ http://www.elem.com/~btilly/kelly-criterion/ or http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/ http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/. The problem is NOT that my son's ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER is giving him a MORE RIGOROUS math education than I received. It is that she FAILED TO TEACH him. Full. Stop. She FAILED to TEACH him. Even so, on the standardized tests that we use to measure this fucking bullshit, HE WAS BETTER THAN 95% OF KIDS HIS AGE IN CALIFORNIA. This was true DESPITE his lacking basic skills like long multiplication! In other words he is what Common Core proponents will cite AS A GODDAMNED SUCCESS!!! And yet I had to spend my fucking time and money to fix their failure. And not, I assure you, due to any lack of ability on his part. His scores relative to other California children are a testament to THAT fact. Language warning off. Please read my rant multiple times, and try to put yourself into my shoes. And hopefully you'll think twice before dismissing other people's feedback in such a condescending manner.

jacobolus 10y ago
You might want to re-read the conversation sometime when you’re in a generous mood. From my outsider perspective, the comment you are replying to is entirely reasonable and not personal (“The major complaint from parents [..] seems to be” is not the same as “your complaint right here”), and then you flew off the handle and started cursing the commenter and your son’s teacher in all caps. P.S. this “If we want to actually fix elementary math education, that would be simple.” is a pretty ridiculous statement, unless by “simple” you mean something like, «Create a new job for elementary school math teachers; hire well qualified candidates; give them rigorous teacher training; pay them much better, provide a longer career ladder, give them more autonomy, and show them dramatically more respect than currently; and reorganize the whole school day to give the new math teachers time for introspection, collaboration, and professional development. While we’re at it, fix and improve school facilities, and make sure every school/teacher has the resources they need.» In that case, sure, “simple”. (Note that the specific curriculum used has little to do with any of this.)
- btilly 10y ago
  If you read it carefully, "the major complaint from parents" is one of my top complaints. I simply had been trying to be polite and analytical in other posts, but seeing the usual putdown thrown out there caused me to see red. If it wasn't the stock way of ignoring complaints for Common Core, I'm sure that I would have responded differently.
mjmahone17 10y ago
I'm sorry I belittled your experience and frustration. I didn't intend to do that, or to say your problems with your child's math education aren't real problems. My response was coming from talking extensively with teachers responsible for implementing common core. Their biggest complaints are not coming from top-100 mathematicians. I recognize you are angry your child isn't being taught well. And that the standards and expectations, both with what your child will learn and what teachers will be capable of teaching, aren't up to snuff. I agree with you. But for educators, that is not the typical complaint (this may not be true amongst you and your friends and family, though). Common core's curriculum can be good while the education produced from teachers trying to implement it is bad. I'd place the blame primarily on the process we use for training and incentivizing our elementary teachers: we don't treat math competency as a requirement, we don't provide enough support to implementing new curriculums, and we don't provide good teachers with the authority to enforce real standards. No matter what curriculum people try to use, the teacher-support problem needs to be fixed. Common core is not the real enemy. And it would be great if part of the support we gave to teachers was paying people like you to provide training to them, and helping those teachers who don't like teaching math learn what challenging and achievable standards actually are.