6 ms·

Susan Fowler's case was not unique, I know women in tech who can confirm this. These are systematic issues. Why are you so desperate to downplay them, and why d

by and0 10y ago

Susan Fowler's case was not unique, I know women in tech who can confirm this. These are systematic issues. Why are you so desperate to downplay them, and why do you get so nervous when you're not allowed to frame the issues or control how they're addressed? Also, your murder analogy is.. absurd.

prepend 10y ago
I don't think anyone is claiming that Susan Fowler's case is unique, it is not. Her case is rare, like murder. Of course murder is a terrible crime and is in no way equivalent to sexual harassment, but is useful as an example of a terrible, but rare case. I sincerely hope the problem isn't systemic or systematic within tech, but I need to see data to believe this. Your anecdotes of multiple women who have, unfortunately, suffered, is not evidence of a systemic element of tech company culture. I'm not worried about framing issues, I'm worried about being accurate and precise. One of the parts of programming that I like the most is the procedural accuracy that comes from coding.
- and0 10y ago
  It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid. Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all day and haven't noticed sexual harassment" is more useful?
  - dijit 10y ago
    I hate to jump on you, since I commented on a lot of your comments. But I am genuinely curious if you can point me to documented cases. Your anecdotes of "I know women who were sexually harassed or discriminated against" is the same proof that the parent is giving. I've seen sexism once, it was some guy talking down to the team lead of the help desk, this guy was _shredded_ by every person in the office, before being told to come to HR, someone came to clear his desk that day. This was in the UK where it is rather hard to fire people, so I find it hard to believe to be quite honest that the situation is anywhere near as dire as it's painted. Of course, I wouldn't see it, I'm a big ugly bearded bloke. But we need stats, stories, we need to hold people accountable if it's not the way it should be. Not tell everyone it's bad and then go on about feminism. The kinds of people who are causing these issues do not give a solitary fuck about how your girls have your back, especially if you're not going to hold the guy to account in the first place.
    - and0 10y ago
      The highest-profile case that I'm personally attached to or know people involved in would be the countless allegations against Jacob Applebaum from Tor. There's one particularly dishonest method that people who defend the status quo use (usually out of sweaty desperation for privileges handed out based on gender, race, or financial class), which is the way they frame incidents of abuse or oppression as completely isolated from society or culture. If you look at the Uber or Tor cases you have to realize that there is a culture in hacker / geek / IT that enabled it. Hell, if you post on HN must you realize there's values that the majority of us share. And those values that enabled the horrors at Tor and Uber are likely also present in other situations that are based on or include the same culture. If you think I'm implying all men in SV or on HN are misogynists then you're willfully misinterpreting me, I'm just saying these are systematic / cultural issues and should be addressed as such. Also, it'd be great if you'd step out of the way.
      - dijit 10y ago
        Jacob Applebaum was publicly crucified and Uber also. That would not be a thing if there was an inherent sexism in tech, if that was the case people would have shrugged at it as if it was normal behaviour. They most certainly did not. I won't comment on "get out of the way".
        and0 10y ago
        No one is talking about punishments or justice after the fact. You would never say a crime that occurs systematically is a non-issue because the perpetrators are punished if/when caught. PLEASE get out of the way. Stop mucking with people's fights for equality by injecting your willful ignorance.
        dijit 10y ago
        Sex crime in Sweden is reported at higher rates than the rest of the world. This is believed to be caused by the fact that it's easy to provide evidence that will lead to conviction and trials are dealt with swiftly. The reason I bring this up is because if Women know it's normal and accepted to point out their oppressors and that justice will be had, then they will be more likely to report them and the world becomes a better place. I fight for equality, my fight is no less valid than yours just because I have a penis, but I told you about the refugees already- I don't want women to be in tech if they're not integrated. We _all_ deserve to be integrated.
  - prepend 10y ago
    What do you mean by "everyone is telling you it's not rare?" I read accounts of women who were treated horribly and unjustly, but certainly not by "everyone." I expect I see a post or three every month and that is rare considering there are 3.6M programmers in the US and 18.2M worldwide. I don't stare at a screen all day. I work and have worked with teams of all sizes, hiring, firing, negotiating salary, dealing with HR and all that stuff. Although I would love to stare at a screen all day. It's funny that you are calling me as sheltered and saying my experience isn't valid. This doesn't seem like rational behavior. Your irrationality in this aspect makes me doubt other claims by you that are not backed by data.
    - and0 10y ago
      You're claiming you can estimate the frequency of these incidents based on how often they crop up on HN, which just flagged this straightforward and innocent link for being feminist, so yes you are definitely sheltered from these issues.
      - prepend 10y ago
        I'm not making that claim at all. I'm claiming that it seems rare to me based on my experiences in the industry. I am claiming that you should not assert something is common without data. Somehow your anecdotal conversations are valid for a really broad assumption for frequency? It's very interesting that you have such a double standard toward things you believe. How do you form beliefs? Do you randomly decide things, then cherry pick enough "data" to back up your opinion?
    - dobbin 10y ago
      You know, not every woman who has bad experiences in the tech industry writes a blog post about it and puts it up on HN. A lot of us don't even bother reporting it to HR anymore, since we're well aware by now that HR exists to protect the company from lawsuits, not to protect women from harassment. And lawsuits just end up getting you informally blacklisted. I personally know a lot of women, including myself, who have faced issues with sexism and harassment in the tech industry, and most of us have either sucked it up if we decide it's not that bad, or find another job if it is. I doubt any of us would bring it up in front of a male coworker who hasn't already demonstrated that he's "safe" to talk to about these things. I think it's great that more women are feeling comfortable speaking publicly about issues in the industry, but I think many of us are still struggling not to be the nail that sticks out and gets hammered down. Why would someone put their career at risk to "educate" a coworker who has already demonstrated that he doesn't care what women say about it?
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    No actual data (x keeps saying y is not data) No true Scotsman *Trying to censor opposition in earlier post. If you ever wonder why people aren't taking you seriously or listening to you, that's a good start.
    - and0 10y ago
      Damn, if only these women had also found the Wikipedia portal for logical fallacies, and also had concrete stats on workplace harassment, which is a personal, embarrassing, and highly political subject.
      - stagbeetle 10y ago
        I'm not certain at what you're trying to get at here. Can you elaborate? ETA: I genuinely don't understand the parent comment.
        and0 10y ago
        The parent comment "debunked" my reasoning by citing logical fallacies. There's a page on Wikipedia that lists all logical fallacies and links to their pages, it's often cited as one of the best / coolest pagest on Wikipedia (seriously, check it out.) But recently a lot of people think they can win (or shut down) arguments (or pleas for equality) by leaning on these logical fallacies a little to hard. It's a lame and desperate move, as there's literally always something you can throw out when you can't defend your point anymore. It's become such a "thing" that you can counter "oh cool that you found that wikipedia portal". It's particularly frustrating since combating inequality (or any social issue) often requires more of an emotional / social intelligence and personal experiences / understanding, which are apparently not fair game to these Greybeard Grand Wizard Gatekeepers of Logic(tm) And asking for concrete data/stats on an incredibly personal, often legal, and highly politicized systematic trend is obviously absurd, but a good way to dismiss an argument you find inconvenient and don't want to address.
        stagbeetle 10y ago

by and0 10y ago

prepend 10y ago

I don't think anyone is claiming that Susan Fowler's case is unique, it is not. Her case is rare, like murder. Of course murder is a terrible crime and is in no way equivalent to sexual harassment, but is useful as an example of a terrible, but rare case. I sincerely hope the problem isn't systemic or systematic within tech, but I need to see data to believe this. Your anecdotes of multiple women who have, unfortunately, suffered, is not evidence of a systemic element of tech company culture. I'm not worried about framing issues, I'm worried about being accurate and precise. One of the parts of programming that I like the most is the procedural accuracy that comes from coding.

and0 10y ago
It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid. Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all day and haven't noticed sexual harassment" is more useful?
- dijit 10y ago
  I hate to jump on you, since I commented on a lot of your comments. But I am genuinely curious if you can point me to documented cases. Your anecdotes of "I know women who were sexually harassed or discriminated against" is the same proof that the parent is giving. I've seen sexism once, it was some guy talking down to the team lead of the help desk, this guy was _shredded_ by every person in the office, before being told to come to HR, someone came to clear his desk that day. This was in the UK where it is rather hard to fire people, so I find it hard to believe to be quite honest that the situation is anywhere near as dire as it's painted. Of course, I wouldn't see it, I'm a big ugly bearded bloke. But we need stats, stories, we need to hold people accountable if it's not the way it should be. Not tell everyone it's bad and then go on about feminism. The kinds of people who are causing these issues do not give a solitary fuck about how your girls have your back, especially if you're not going to hold the guy to account in the first place.
  - and0 10y ago
    The highest-profile case that I'm personally attached to or know people involved in would be the countless allegations against Jacob Applebaum from Tor. There's one particularly dishonest method that people who defend the status quo use (usually out of sweaty desperation for privileges handed out based on gender, race, or financial class), which is the way they frame incidents of abuse or oppression as completely isolated from society or culture. If you look at the Uber or Tor cases you have to realize that there is a culture in hacker / geek / IT that enabled it. Hell, if you post on HN must you realize there's values that the majority of us share. And those values that enabled the horrors at Tor and Uber are likely also present in other situations that are based on or include the same culture. If you think I'm implying all men in SV or on HN are misogynists then you're willfully misinterpreting me, I'm just saying these are systematic / cultural issues and should be addressed as such. Also, it'd be great if you'd step out of the way.
    - dijit 10y ago
      Jacob Applebaum was publicly crucified and Uber also. That would not be a thing if there was an inherent sexism in tech, if that was the case people would have shrugged at it as if it was normal behaviour. They most certainly did not. I won't comment on "get out of the way".
      - and0 10y ago
        No one is talking about punishments or justice after the fact. You would never say a crime that occurs systematically is a non-issue because the perpetrators are punished if/when caught. PLEASE get out of the way. Stop mucking with people's fights for equality by injecting your willful ignorance.
        dijit 10y ago
        Sex crime in Sweden is reported at higher rates than the rest of the world. This is believed to be caused by the fact that it's easy to provide evidence that will lead to conviction and trials are dealt with swiftly. The reason I bring this up is because if Women know it's normal and accepted to point out their oppressors and that justice will be had, then they will be more likely to report them and the world becomes a better place. I fight for equality, my fight is no less valid than yours just because I have a penis, but I told you about the refugees already- I don't want women to be in tech if they're not integrated. We _all_ deserve to be integrated.
- prepend 10y ago
  What do you mean by "everyone is telling you it's not rare?" I read accounts of women who were treated horribly and unjustly, but certainly not by "everyone." I expect I see a post or three every month and that is rare considering there are 3.6M programmers in the US and 18.2M worldwide. I don't stare at a screen all day. I work and have worked with teams of all sizes, hiring, firing, negotiating salary, dealing with HR and all that stuff. Although I would love to stare at a screen all day. It's funny that you are calling me as sheltered and saying my experience isn't valid. This doesn't seem like rational behavior. Your irrationality in this aspect makes me doubt other claims by you that are not backed by data.
  - and0 10y ago
    You're claiming you can estimate the frequency of these incidents based on how often they crop up on HN, which just flagged this straightforward and innocent link for being feminist, so yes you are definitely sheltered from these issues.
    - prepend 10y ago
      I'm not making that claim at all. I'm claiming that it seems rare to me based on my experiences in the industry. I am claiming that you should not assert something is common without data. Somehow your anecdotal conversations are valid for a really broad assumption for frequency? It's very interesting that you have such a double standard toward things you believe. How do you form beliefs? Do you randomly decide things, then cherry pick enough "data" to back up your opinion?
  - dobbin 10y ago
    You know, not every woman who has bad experiences in the tech industry writes a blog post about it and puts it up on HN. A lot of us don't even bother reporting it to HR anymore, since we're well aware by now that HR exists to protect the company from lawsuits, not to protect women from harassment. And lawsuits just end up getting you informally blacklisted. I personally know a lot of women, including myself, who have faced issues with sexism and harassment in the tech industry, and most of us have either sucked it up if we decide it's not that bad, or find another job if it is. I doubt any of us would bring it up in front of a male coworker who hasn't already demonstrated that he's "safe" to talk to about these things. I think it's great that more women are feeling comfortable speaking publicly about issues in the industry, but I think many of us are still struggling not to be the nail that sticks out and gets hammered down. Why would someone put their career at risk to "educate" a coworker who has already demonstrated that he doesn't care what women say about it?
- antisthenes 10y ago
  No actual data (x keeps saying y is not data) No true Scotsman *Trying to censor opposition in earlier post. If you ever wonder why people aren't taking you seriously or listening to you, that's a good start.
  - and0 10y ago
    Damn, if only these women had also found the Wikipedia portal for logical fallacies, and also had concrete stats on workplace harassment, which is a personal, embarrassing, and highly political subject.
    - stagbeetle 10y ago
      I'm not certain at what you're trying to get at here. Can you elaborate? ETA: I genuinely don't understand the parent comment.
      - and0 10y ago
        The parent comment "debunked" my reasoning by citing logical fallacies. There's a page on Wikipedia that lists all logical fallacies and links to their pages, it's often cited as one of the best / coolest pagest on Wikipedia (seriously, check it out.) But recently a lot of people think they can win (or shut down) arguments (or pleas for equality) by leaning on these logical fallacies a little to hard. It's a lame and desperate move, as there's literally always something you can throw out when you can't defend your point anymore. It's become such a "thing" that you can counter "oh cool that you found that wikipedia portal". It's particularly frustrating since combating inequality (or any social issue) often requires more of an emotional / social intelligence and personal experiences / understanding, which are apparently not fair game to these Greybeard Grand Wizard Gatekeepers of Logic(tm) And asking for concrete data/stats on an incredibly personal, often legal, and highly politicized systematic trend is obviously absurd, but a good way to dismiss an argument you find inconvenient and don't want to address.
        stagbeetle 10y ago