9 ms·

This could well be a negotiating strategy to rejigger the relationship with Intel. Dell did exactly the same thing a number of times for similar reasons. So a

by imglorp 10y ago

This could well be a negotiating strategy to rejigger the relationship with Intel. Dell did exactly the same thing a number of times for similar reasons. So all you do is: put out some press releases, ramp up some hires, put out some glossy product roadmaps. Intel starts to get separation anxiety and flinches: well, maybe they can afford to come closer to AMD prices for another year. They kiss up and you back out of your false posturing. Rinse and repeat every few years.

the-dude 10y ago
Ah, just like governments threaten to use Linux to rejigger MS.
- vlunkr 10y ago
  I've heard similar theories about SteamOS. That it was a threat to Microsoft since they had just released their own store on Windows 8 that competed with Steam. I'm inclined to believe it since Valve seems to not care about it much anymore.
  - speeder 10y ago
    If I remember correctly, Valve from the start considered SteamOS as "backup", a way to escape Windows if MS pull some shenanigan they don't like. Since MS is mostly "behaving" themselves, Valve is keeping SteamOS around, but not focusing on it. At least for now... (it wouldn't surprise me if MS became more aggressive in their W10+DX12+"Xbox everywhere"+"MS Store" push...)
    - zitterbewegung 10y ago
      The other issue for consumers is that SteamOs will give you a ~10% performance hit .
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        And beyond the 1337 gamer kids, who will notice?
        edraferi 10y ago
        > And beyond the 1337 gamer kids, who will notice? Isn't that the core market?
      - nacs 10y ago
        > SteamOs will give you a ~10% performance hit Any sources to back up this claim? 10% performance hit compared to what? Windows? A different Linux distro? I've found that for native games, Linux can actually offer better performance in many cases than the Windows version. Someone also did a test recently (full video on Youtube) with the Windows version of the new Doom running on Linux through the WINE emulation (yes I know its not technically an emulator) via Vulkan and the performance exceeded the Windows version.
        anonymfus 10y ago
        Wine tests are a bad way to compare performance because you can not be sure that all features that the game uses are actually implemented and not stubbed.
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        My personal anecdotal evidence is that many of the games available for Linux on steam are really terrible ports. Gang beasts for example couldn't even find the binary. Once I fixed that, I was lucky to get 5 fps with lowest settings on my 6 core i7 with a Titan x. Yes I had the latest Nvidia drivers. Chivalry medieval warfare was another unplayable performance offender. This isn't necessarily valve's fault though. It's because the devs will shit out a Linux build without even trying to run it or they just don't care. Some games work great. Some don't work at all and shouldn't even be listed with Linux support. I sincerely hope Linux takes off as a viable gaming platform. All the tools and components are there. The only thing missing at the moment is developer mindshare.
    - bisby 10y ago
      a ton of major issues have been recently fixed. It doesn't seem to be on the back burner at all, it's just that building/updating an entire OS is a bit different from building/updating just steam. Also, a lot of fixes are edge cases that most people don't view as fixes, because it was never an issue for them. Most of the issue revolves around GPU drivers, which in theory valve is not responsible for, but they have hired devs to work on the open source AMD drivers. Even then, most devs don't optimize for OpenGL. That's again on the dev, and not valve, unless valve is going to provide devs to every game developer out there to provide linux support. Vulkan (hopefully) would resolve that, as optimizing vulkan builds makes games run better everywhere. Of course they aren't putting ALL their eggs in this basket. ~90% of their revenue comes from windows, so they should be putting most of their effort into windows support. You can't lose your current customers while trying to make the future better. The fact that they are in fact fixing things and hiring driver devs is a great sign. And I believe they provided the rocket league dev too? Either way, progress is coming, slow and steady. linux as a primary gaming platform works just fine for me, thanks to valve.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        linux as a primary gaming platform works just fine for me, thanks to valve. Confirmed by a happy occasional CS:GO player here.
        willemmali 10y ago
        I wish it worked on Debian, it used to but the last time I tried I lost a day and still didn't get it to run...
        Chyzwar 10y ago
        Its works fine in Ubuntu.
        buffsquid 10y ago
        I've been running it on Debian testing here for nearly two years now, no major problems. Since jessie it's just an apt-get away.
  - eikenberry 10y ago
    This is still a very real threat. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-just-added-the-best-way-of-preventing-installation-of-bloatware-in-windows-10/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-just-added-the-best-way-of... https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/28/windows-10-will-soon-block-non-store-apps-like-os-x-does/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/28/windows-10-will-soon-blo...
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Probably depends on where the Linux is being used. When I did DoD contracting there was very much a constant push towards using Linux and OSS where possible but this was mostly in product development, not client operating systems.
vvanders 10y ago
This is pretty par for the course in a lot of HW companies(esp SoC selection). Where it gets tricky is when you've pulled that move a couple times and then it turns out AMD/ARM/etc actually have the good chips. At that point you've burned the other company so many times by changing at the last minute that it becomes hard to get real support and engagement where you actually need it.
- nomel 10y ago
  > actually have the good chips. Has that ever been the case yet, for ARM servers? There's no "magic" in ARM. The reduced power comes from the reduced complexity. Heck, branch prediction is fairly new in ARM. I have trouble seeing a time when an Intel chip will ever fall behind even a bucket full of ARM chips, unless workloads ever fall near zero.
  - deepnotderp 10y ago
    There are a lot of nice things in arm. Ie slightly less register renaming. For example, Jim Keller estimates a fully developed arm chip will be 15-30% more efficient than an equivalent x86. Now, this development hasn't happened yet, but with giants like Qualcomm, it will happen eventually.
    - AlphaSite 10y ago
      If this was the case (and there weren't other issues e.g. insturctuon fusion etc) then wouldn't AMD be pushing K12 far harder? It's the same ceneteral core as Zen but they don't seem to have as much confidence in it.
      - deepnotderp 10y ago
        Because migration is super expensive and a big part of what's preventing the movement to ARM servers. Also, the aforementioned case hasn't necessarily happened, Keller has spent forever making Zen better. They are still working on K12 IIRC, but Ryzen, for good reason, is the focus. Besides, CPUs are more and more becoming simply host systems. Besides, never doubt the word of jim keller ;)
mtgx 10y ago
Not quite. They've been working together for a few years to do this. Qualcomm even based its motherboard design off of Microsoft's Project Olympus. > QDT has been working with Microsoft for several years on ARM-based server enablement and has onsite engineering at Microsoft to collaboratively optimize a version of Windows Server, for Microsoft’s internal use in its data centers, on Qualcomm Centriq 2400-based systems. QDT’s OCP submission is the result of a multi-faceted, multi-level engagement between the two companies to facilitate ARM adoption into the data center. It encompasses multiple areas of hardware and software including board development, firmware, operating system, compilers and tools, and CoreCLR. https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2017/03/08/qualcomm-collaborates-microsoft-accelerate-cloud-services-10nm-qualcomm https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2017/03/08/qualcomm-c... Also, I doubt Microsoft went through the trouble of supporting full x86 programs on Qualcomm's ARM chips just to improve the relationship with Intel. If anything, finally bringing ARM to not just servers, but Windows notebooks is what will make Intel even angrier with Microsoft. So far, the main reason why ARM couldn't enter the PC market was the Windows lock-in - if x86 programs wouldn't work on ARM, then they had no chance (save for UWP apps gaining huge popularity, which hasn't happened yet, and I don't expect to happen for at least a few more years, if ever).
- pm90 10y ago
  Why doesn't apple move macbooks to ARM processors?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - jameskegel 10y ago
    I could see that being a possibility in the future as the discussion moves away from firepower and more toward power consumption, which seems to be a focus of Apple products.
  - tqkxzugoaupvwqr 10y ago
    They introduced ARM to manage their fingerprint sensor and the TouchBar. Rumors had it that Apple is working on connecting the ARM chip to more subsystems so it can do background work like background refresh (or what that feature is called when the laptop is in sleep – PowerNap?). I see this as Apple slowly creating a hybrid (low energy ARM for easy tasks and faster x86 for speed). Maybe the goal is a complete transition to ARM and Apple starts to design their own MacBook (Pro) CPUs to gain more control (be less dependent on Intel’s varying release cycles).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Twirrim 10y ago
Dell did this for ages with AMD chips. Same time every year you'd see an article go across all the magazines about Dell planning to introduce AMD chips to their servers, and just as quickly vanish once Dell had finished negotiating with Intel.
- r00fus 10y ago
  The resulting Intel Payola sometimes carrying Dell's quarters - preventing Dell from missing profitability. https://www.velocityreviews.com/threads/intel-and-dell-scum-of-the-earth.729078/ https://www.velocityreviews.com/threads/intel-and-dell-scum-...
- Spooky23 10y ago
  You can do this with a moderate sized enterprise. Engage HP/Dell or a strong VAR. Get them on the hook and focus on Intel E7 (and SQL Server enterprise if you are an MS shop). Then get meeting scheduled with IBM and Oracle. Talk to the VAR or OEM guy in your office with your POWER mug poorly hidden. Start asking questions about TPC benchmarks and error correction. Ask if you can pay for cores only when you need peak capacity. Intel will provide them with marketing support, potentially very significant if they care about you. Microsoft will also bend over backwards for an Oracle compete opportunity.
- ams6110 10y ago
  They did more than plan, I have a rack full of older Dell servers with AMD CPUs.
  - Twirrim 10y ago
    When I say "did this for ages", I'm reaching back to the turn of the millennium. It started happening about as soon as AMD brought their first competitive chip to the market. Dell did eventually start shipping servers with AMD processors in them, but it was long after they first started saying "We may start selling AMD based servers."
- TwoBit 10y ago
  That might change with AMD's new chips.
askvictor 10y ago
At some point though, this sends the competition (AMD) out of business, then, no more negotiation of this sort, and also everyone is worse off.
- andreiw 10y ago
  Actually, the only signal so far is to AMD to continue investing developing ARM chips after the A1100.
askvictor 10y ago
At some point though, this sends the competition (AMD) out of business, then, no more negotiation of this sort, and also everyone is worse off.
andreiw 10y ago
No, this is the real deal, apparently. Obviously the work has gone on for years but between OCP and Xeon competitive chips (ThunderX2 and Centriq) it makes sense to put public weight behind it. The real question is if WSL (Ubuntu for Windows) will be available for AArch64 Windows. Because the only real 64-bit ARM software ecosystem today is Linux (courtesy of Linaro, Redhat, Canonical, Suse, and ARM). Between WSL and BTing legacy 32-bit x86 apps this could be a decent offering for folks who already have Microsoft infrastructure. Even cooler if Hyper-V is ported.
Jabbles 10y ago
Perhaps spurred by Google's recent announcement that they have Skylake chips in their cloud: https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2017/02/Google-Cloud-Platform-is-the-first-cloud-provider-to-offer-Intel-Skylake.html https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2017/02/Google-Cloud-Pl...
- faragon 10y ago
  Sure. And also, may be the Google-Inte Skylake comes from past year, when Google was testing POWER9 chips... [1] [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_power9/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_p...
  - amboar 10y ago
    There's more recent news on that front: https://blog.rackspace.com/the-latest-zaius-barreleye-g2-open-compute-openpower-server https://blog.rackspace.com/the-latest-zaius-barreleye-g2-ope...
david-cako 10y ago
Reminds me of how media conglomerates fuck with the satellite/cable companies.
Spooky23 10y ago
It could be, but vendors tend to have epiphanies when they eat their dog food. Microsoft and Exchange was a great example. Doing things like running big mailboxes, having HA services, and doing discovery were ridiculous hacks until Exchange Online came around and subjected them to the pain. Similarly, I'm sure Microsoft has plenty of idle servers sitting around doing very little that could easily be running more effectively on ARM. Intel has improved power management, but their low-end chips suck.

by imglorp 10y ago

the-dude 10y ago

Ah, just like governments threaten to use Linux to rejigger MS.

vlunkr 10y ago
I've heard similar theories about SteamOS. That it was a threat to Microsoft since they had just released their own store on Windows 8 that competed with Steam. I'm inclined to believe it since Valve seems to not care about it much anymore.
- speeder 10y ago
  If I remember correctly, Valve from the start considered SteamOS as "backup", a way to escape Windows if MS pull some shenanigan they don't like. Since MS is mostly "behaving" themselves, Valve is keeping SteamOS around, but not focusing on it. At least for now... (it wouldn't surprise me if MS became more aggressive in their W10+DX12+"Xbox everywhere"+"MS Store" push...)
  - zitterbewegung 10y ago
    The other issue for consumers is that SteamOs will give you a ~10% performance hit .
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      And beyond the 1337 gamer kids, who will notice?
      - edraferi 10y ago
        > And beyond the 1337 gamer kids, who will notice? Isn't that the core market?
    - nacs 10y ago
      > SteamOs will give you a ~10% performance hit Any sources to back up this claim? 10% performance hit compared to what? Windows? A different Linux distro? I've found that for native games, Linux can actually offer better performance in many cases than the Windows version. Someone also did a test recently (full video on Youtube) with the Windows version of the new Doom running on Linux through the WINE emulation (yes I know its not technically an emulator) via Vulkan and the performance exceeded the Windows version.
      - anonymfus 10y ago
        Wine tests are a bad way to compare performance because you can not be sure that all features that the game uses are actually implemented and not stubbed.
      - gnarbarian 10y ago
        My personal anecdotal evidence is that many of the games available for Linux on steam are really terrible ports. Gang beasts for example couldn't even find the binary. Once I fixed that, I was lucky to get 5 fps with lowest settings on my 6 core i7 with a Titan x. Yes I had the latest Nvidia drivers. Chivalry medieval warfare was another unplayable performance offender. This isn't necessarily valve's fault though. It's because the devs will shit out a Linux build without even trying to run it or they just don't care. Some games work great. Some don't work at all and shouldn't even be listed with Linux support. I sincerely hope Linux takes off as a viable gaming platform. All the tools and components are there. The only thing missing at the moment is developer mindshare.
  - bisby 10y ago
    a ton of major issues have been recently fixed. It doesn't seem to be on the back burner at all, it's just that building/updating an entire OS is a bit different from building/updating just steam. Also, a lot of fixes are edge cases that most people don't view as fixes, because it was never an issue for them. Most of the issue revolves around GPU drivers, which in theory valve is not responsible for, but they have hired devs to work on the open source AMD drivers. Even then, most devs don't optimize for OpenGL. That's again on the dev, and not valve, unless valve is going to provide devs to every game developer out there to provide linux support. Vulkan (hopefully) would resolve that, as optimizing vulkan builds makes games run better everywhere. Of course they aren't putting ALL their eggs in this basket. ~90% of their revenue comes from windows, so they should be putting most of their effort into windows support. You can't lose your current customers while trying to make the future better. The fact that they are in fact fixing things and hiring driver devs is a great sign. And I believe they provided the rocket league dev too? Either way, progress is coming, slow and steady. linux as a primary gaming platform works just fine for me, thanks to valve.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      linux as a primary gaming platform works just fine for me, thanks to valve. Confirmed by a happy occasional CS:GO player here.
      - willemmali 10y ago
        I wish it worked on Debian, it used to but the last time I tried I lost a day and still didn't get it to run...
        Chyzwar 10y ago
        Its works fine in Ubuntu.
        buffsquid 10y ago
        I've been running it on Debian testing here for nearly two years now, no major problems. Since jessie it's just an apt-get away.
- eikenberry 10y ago
  This is still a very real threat. https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-just-added-the-best-way-of-preventing-installation-of-bloatware-in-windows-10/ https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-just-added-the-best-way-of... https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/28/windows-10-will-soon-block-non-store-apps-like-os-x-does/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/28/windows-10-will-soon-blo...
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
Probably depends on where the Linux is being used. When I did DoD contracting there was very much a constant push towards using Linux and OSS where possible but this was mostly in product development, not client operating systems.

vvanders 10y ago

This is pretty par for the course in a lot of HW companies(esp SoC selection). Where it gets tricky is when you've pulled that move a couple times and then it turns out AMD/ARM/etc actually have the good chips. At that point you've burned the other company so many times by changing at the last minute that it becomes hard to get real support and engagement where you actually need it.

nomel 10y ago
> actually have the good chips. Has that ever been the case yet, for ARM servers? There's no "magic" in ARM. The reduced power comes from the reduced complexity. Heck, branch prediction is fairly new in ARM. I have trouble seeing a time when an Intel chip will ever fall behind even a bucket full of ARM chips, unless workloads ever fall near zero.
- deepnotderp 10y ago
  There are a lot of nice things in arm. Ie slightly less register renaming. For example, Jim Keller estimates a fully developed arm chip will be 15-30% more efficient than an equivalent x86. Now, this development hasn't happened yet, but with giants like Qualcomm, it will happen eventually.
  - AlphaSite 10y ago
    If this was the case (and there weren't other issues e.g. insturctuon fusion etc) then wouldn't AMD be pushing K12 far harder? It's the same ceneteral core as Zen but they don't seem to have as much confidence in it.
    - deepnotderp 10y ago
      Because migration is super expensive and a big part of what's preventing the movement to ARM servers. Also, the aforementioned case hasn't necessarily happened, Keller has spent forever making Zen better. They are still working on K12 IIRC, but Ryzen, for good reason, is the focus. Besides, CPUs are more and more becoming simply host systems. Besides, never doubt the word of jim keller ;)

mtgx 10y ago

Not quite. They've been working together for a few years to do this. Qualcomm even based its motherboard design off of Microsoft's Project Olympus. > QDT has been working with Microsoft for several years on ARM-based server enablement and has onsite engineering at Microsoft to collaboratively optimize a version of Windows Server, for Microsoft’s internal use in its data centers, on Qualcomm Centriq 2400-based systems. QDT’s OCP submission is the result of a multi-faceted, multi-level engagement between the two companies to facilitate ARM adoption into the data center. It encompasses multiple areas of hardware and software including board development, firmware, operating system, compilers and tools, and CoreCLR. https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2017/03/08/qualcomm-collaborates-microsoft-accelerate-cloud-services-10nm-qualcomm https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2017/03/08/qualcomm-c... Also, I doubt Microsoft went through the trouble of supporting full x86 programs on Qualcomm's ARM chips just to improve the relationship with Intel. If anything, finally bringing ARM to not just servers, but Windows notebooks is what will make Intel even angrier with Microsoft. So far, the main reason why ARM couldn't enter the PC market was the Windows lock-in - if x86 programs wouldn't work on ARM, then they had no chance (save for UWP apps gaining huge popularity, which hasn't happened yet, and I don't expect to happen for at least a few more years, if ever).

pm90 10y ago
Why doesn't apple move macbooks to ARM processors?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jameskegel 10y ago
  I could see that being a possibility in the future as the discussion moves away from firepower and more toward power consumption, which seems to be a focus of Apple products.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 10y ago
  They introduced ARM to manage their fingerprint sensor and the TouchBar. Rumors had it that Apple is working on connecting the ARM chip to more subsystems so it can do background work like background refresh (or what that feature is called when the laptop is in sleep – PowerNap?). I see this as Apple slowly creating a hybrid (low energy ARM for easy tasks and faster x86 for speed). Maybe the goal is a complete transition to ARM and Apple starts to design their own MacBook (Pro) CPUs to gain more control (be less dependent on Intel’s varying release cycles).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Twirrim 10y ago

Dell did this for ages with AMD chips. Same time every year you'd see an article go across all the magazines about Dell planning to introduce AMD chips to their servers, and just as quickly vanish once Dell had finished negotiating with Intel.

r00fus 10y ago
The resulting Intel Payola sometimes carrying Dell's quarters - preventing Dell from missing profitability. https://www.velocityreviews.com/threads/intel-and-dell-scum-of-the-earth.729078/ https://www.velocityreviews.com/threads/intel-and-dell-scum-...
Spooky23 10y ago
You can do this with a moderate sized enterprise. Engage HP/Dell or a strong VAR. Get them on the hook and focus on Intel E7 (and SQL Server enterprise if you are an MS shop). Then get meeting scheduled with IBM and Oracle. Talk to the VAR or OEM guy in your office with your POWER mug poorly hidden. Start asking questions about TPC benchmarks and error correction. Ask if you can pay for cores only when you need peak capacity. Intel will provide them with marketing support, potentially very significant if they care about you. Microsoft will also bend over backwards for an Oracle compete opportunity.
ams6110 10y ago
They did more than plan, I have a rack full of older Dell servers with AMD CPUs.
- Twirrim 10y ago
  When I say "did this for ages", I'm reaching back to the turn of the millennium. It started happening about as soon as AMD brought their first competitive chip to the market. Dell did eventually start shipping servers with AMD processors in them, but it was long after they first started saying "We may start selling AMD based servers."
TwoBit 10y ago
That might change with AMD's new chips.

askvictor 10y ago

At some point though, this sends the competition (AMD) out of business, then, no more negotiation of this sort, and also everyone is worse off.

andreiw 10y ago
Actually, the only signal so far is to AMD to continue investing developing ARM chips after the A1100.

askvictor 10y ago

At some point though, this sends the competition (AMD) out of business, then, no more negotiation of this sort, and also everyone is worse off.

andreiw 10y ago

No, this is the real deal, apparently. Obviously the work has gone on for years but between OCP and Xeon competitive chips (ThunderX2 and Centriq) it makes sense to put public weight behind it. The real question is if WSL (Ubuntu for Windows) will be available for AArch64 Windows. Because the only real 64-bit ARM software ecosystem today is Linux (courtesy of Linaro, Redhat, Canonical, Suse, and ARM). Between WSL and BTing legacy 32-bit x86 apps this could be a decent offering for folks who already have Microsoft infrastructure. Even cooler if Hyper-V is ported.

Jabbles 10y ago

Perhaps spurred by Google's recent announcement that they have Skylake chips in their cloud: https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2017/02/Google-Cloud-Platform-is-the-first-cloud-provider-to-offer-Intel-Skylake.html https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2017/02/Google-Cloud-Pl...

faragon 10y ago
Sure. And also, may be the Google-Inte Skylake comes from past year, when Google was testing POWER9 chips... [1] [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_power9/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_p...
- amboar 10y ago
  There's more recent news on that front: https://blog.rackspace.com/the-latest-zaius-barreleye-g2-open-compute-openpower-server https://blog.rackspace.com/the-latest-zaius-barreleye-g2-ope...

david-cako 10y ago

Reminds me of how media conglomerates fuck with the satellite/cable companies.

Spooky23 10y ago

It could be, but vendors tend to have epiphanies when they eat their dog food. Microsoft and Exchange was a great example. Doing things like running big mailboxes, having HA services, and doing discovery were ridiculous hacks until Exchange Online came around and subjected them to the pain. Similarly, I'm sure Microsoft has plenty of idle servers sitting around doing very little that could easily be running more effectively on ARM. Intel has improved power management, but their low-end chips suck.