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I often feel like there is an opportunity for a hybrid model. Build the app "without code" but then pay to download the code and customize it to your will / dep

by throwaway2016a 10y ago

I often feel like there is an opportunity for a hybrid model. Build the app "without code" but then pay to download the code and customize it to your will / deploy on your own infrastructure. Not saying this would happen with this company but if you don't own the code you are just (as another poster put it) renting your app. If the company you are renting from goes under or raises their prices you are out of luck and the cost of recovering might actually be higher than the cost of having just used a traditional platform in the first place. Not saying I don't believe in those systems. I was one of the founding engineers at a company that did WYSIWYG website creation tools in the early 2000s (think Squarespace only not). I just think customers need to be aware of the concept of vendor lock in and data portability. Edit: another important point is time to market. If your intent is to use an app like this to prove product market fit before going out and building something custom that might make a lot of sense depending on your use case.

levonterteryan 10y ago
What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those platform obsolete. Bubble does offer an option to host the app on dedicated infrastructure but it will be still runnin on bubble with a paid subscription. Another thing is - bubble promised if they ever go out of business and shut down they will make their code open source so that everyone can continue running their apps built on Bubble using their own servers. It sounds fair enough to me.
- nbar1 10y ago
  Yeah... "promised" Consider the trend we're seeing where a company is acquired and ultimately shut down. Those "promises" are (likely) no longer even the founders decision. What happens then? Edit: it may also be a good idea to disclose that you're the founder/CEO of a Bubble partner.
  - levonterteryan 10y ago
    Agree - disclosing that I'm the founder of Bubble certified partner. Been working with them for a while and they really do a great job creating a no code community. Agree that in case if they get sold the decision is no theirs anymore to open or not the source code. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
- onion2k 10y ago
  What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those platform obsolete. That just means they'd need to charge more than their estimated customer lifetime value to make it worthwhile. If they thought a customer typically stays on the platform for 18 months then they could charge the equivalent of 19 months of fees to download the code in order to make more money than they would hosting the app themselves. If they factored in the cost saving from keeping the app running and supported they could charge much less and still make more money than they would hosting the app.
levonterteryan 10y ago
What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those platform obsolete. Bubble does offer an option to host the app on dedicated infrastructure but it will be still runnin on bubble with a paid subscription. Another thing is - bubble promised if they ever go out of business and shut down they will make their code open source so that everyone can continue running their apps built on Bubble using their own servers. It sounds fair enough to me.
pavlov 10y ago
... if you don't own the code you are just renting your app. This is a really important point IMO, and a major problem with the business model of most "app builder" type platforms. Owning the code matters even to non-developers. Anything beyond a static prototype can be expected to require custom programming at some point, but it's typically impossible if you are locked in as a "renter" on a closed WYSIWYG platform. I've worked on a couple of projects that have tried to solve parts of this, most recently a product called React Studio. It just launched in version 1.0: https://reactstudio.com https://reactstudio.com It's a visual front-end design tool that export high-quality React code and complete projects using Facebook's "create-react-app" toolchain (Node, Webpack, Babel).
- throwaway2016a 10y ago
  This looks really awesome. I'm downloading a demo now to give it a spin. Good work.
ksikka 10y ago
I tried this a few years ago actually. Search for Appcubator. The issue is the market is bimodal and there's not really any room for a middle ground. Developers prefer to have full control over their architecture and they have varied and evolving opinions. Non-technical folks tend to churn once they reach the "download your code" step. Ultimately I think the best software will be created by the developers, who don't need a tool like this.
rustyhacker 10y ago
I can see where you are coming from. There are times when I think of a useful tool or service but just don't have the time or funds to do it. In some of those cases I feel like that I cannot be the only one who will find that (non-existing) useful. I suppose that's the motivation behind hackermake.com, somewhere that people could show their ideas and the end result would be available to everyone. But such things requires a vibrant community behind them and building/attracting such community is quite difficult. Would be very interested in hearing your thought on such approaches.

levonterteryan 10y ago

What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those platform obsolete. Bubble does offer an option to host the app on dedicated infrastructure but it will be still runnin on bubble with a paid subscription. Another thing is - bubble promised if they ever go out of business and shut down they will make their code open source so that everyone can continue running their apps built on Bubble using their own servers. It sounds fair enough to me.

nbar1 10y ago
Yeah... "promised" Consider the trend we're seeing where a company is acquired and ultimately shut down. Those "promises" are (likely) no longer even the founders decision. What happens then? Edit: it may also be a good idea to disclose that you're the founder/CEO of a Bubble partner.
- levonterteryan 10y ago
  Agree - disclosing that I'm the founder of Bubble certified partner. Been working with them for a while and they really do a great job creating a no code community. Agree that in case if they get sold the decision is no theirs anymore to open or not the source code. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
onion2k 10y ago
What you say makes sense. But that just makes the subscription model of those platform obsolete. That just means they'd need to charge more than their estimated customer lifetime value to make it worthwhile. If they thought a customer typically stays on the platform for 18 months then they could charge the equivalent of 19 months of fees to download the code in order to make more money than they would hosting the app themselves. If they factored in the cost saving from keeping the app running and supported they could charge much less and still make more money than they would hosting the app.

levonterteryan 10y ago

pavlov 10y ago

... if you don't own the code you are just renting your app. This is a really important point IMO, and a major problem with the business model of most "app builder" type platforms. Owning the code matters even to non-developers. Anything beyond a static prototype can be expected to require custom programming at some point, but it's typically impossible if you are locked in as a "renter" on a closed WYSIWYG platform. I've worked on a couple of projects that have tried to solve parts of this, most recently a product called React Studio. It just launched in version 1.0: https://reactstudio.com https://reactstudio.com It's a visual front-end design tool that export high-quality React code and complete projects using Facebook's "create-react-app" toolchain (Node, Webpack, Babel).

throwaway2016a 10y ago
This looks really awesome. I'm downloading a demo now to give it a spin. Good work.

ksikka 10y ago

I tried this a few years ago actually. Search for Appcubator. The issue is the market is bimodal and there's not really any room for a middle ground. Developers prefer to have full control over their architecture and they have varied and evolving opinions. Non-technical folks tend to churn once they reach the "download your code" step. Ultimately I think the best software will be created by the developers, who don't need a tool like this.

rustyhacker 10y ago

I can see where you are coming from. There are times when I think of a useful tool or service but just don't have the time or funds to do it. In some of those cases I feel like that I cannot be the only one who will find that (non-existing) useful. I suppose that's the motivation behind hackermake.com, somewhere that people could show their ideas and the end result would be available to everyone. But such things requires a vibrant community behind them and building/attracting such community is quite difficult. Would be very interested in hearing your thought on such approaches.