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So what you're saying is "you don't. People with children will not be as good". Great. That means I should not feel bad about any hypothetical statistics that

by knorker 10y ago

So what you're saying is "you don't. People with children will not be as good". Great. That means I should not feel bad about any hypothetical statistics that show parents paid less than non-parents. You're saying parents are, on average, statistically, not as useful as non-parents to a company.

daxfohl 10y ago
Ha, you decide: "Dude we totally have to use this new technology I read about on HN at 2:00 in the morning. It looks so cool!" "Let's use the technology we always use because we know it works for what the client needs and I'll still be able to pick up my kids at 5:30." Who are you giving your money to?
- knorker 10y ago
  Why do you think that the ONLY way to spend extra time on is on that new thing from HN 2 AM? I'm not following this huge leap that you and other commenters are making. How about choosing between the people who have twice as much experience with managing this Oracle cluster you have. Do you want the one with 10 years experience, or the one with 20 years and is credited in Oracle documentation? (all else being equal)
louhike 10y ago
No, he is just saying that he does not have to worry about being as good. It is just a choice. I do not have children but I do not want to spend much time learning outside of my work. But some parents like to learn outside of work. He does not cite any statistics either so you are making a lot of shortcuts.
- richmarr 10y ago
  > No, he is just saying that he does not have to worry about being as good. It is just a choice. Also, being "good" isn't simply a function of whether you've read up on the latest tech fad. A lot of the stuff we chase is an incremental improvement (and in some cases a step backwards). Parenting also helps practice empathy, which is an severely underrated skill in technology circles.
ceautery 10y ago
What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children, and our employers find us quite desirable to have around. If you're focusing on learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out, you'll never learn how to lead a team. You'll teach your employer that you can be abused, because you are desperate to impress them. Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. This is a marathon, brother, not a sprint.
- knorker 10y ago
  > What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children Please read what was written, and what I replied. > If you're[…] I'm not. Your comment is completely disconnected from what I said. > learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out Is that the only way you know how to improve yourself professionally? If so then I think you're doing it wrong. If you're a developer doing network stuff, then given a few years you could get a CCIE or something, and learn tonnes of stuff and be a more valuable employee. You don't have to try to stay on top of the latest developments in SDN. That'd probably be a waste of time.
- pmarreck 10y ago
  > Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. False dichotomy fallacy. There's plenty of programmers I admire who aren't apparently parents. And there's happiness studies which show neither a positive nor a negative gain when parenthood arrives. Curious footnote: I tried to google further studies that creativity goes down once fatherhood strikes (which I have read in the past), and instead found this piece: https://onbeing.org/blog/becoming-a-father-restored-my-creativity/ https://onbeing.org/blog/becoming-a-father-restored-my-creat...
cmrdporcupine 10y ago
No he's saying the definition of "being good" is not obsessively adopting "new technology" but realizing that the core foundations of CS are the core foundations of CS, and doing your job 8 hours a day and learning your core skill set and iterating and practicing on it is in fact all that is needed to produce a good programmer. Frankly I think those of us who have been in the industry over 15 or 20 years know that adopting new technologies is not the hard or important part. Having the wisdom about how, when, and what to apply things, recognizing good engineering, and learning to work well in a team -- that's what's important. Having kids might mean you can't stay up at night learning the latest JS framework -- but that very likely might be a good thing.
- knorker 10y ago
  Why are you assuming all learning is about "new tech"? How about just taking an online class in old traffic theory, to improve your network coding skills? Your whole comment is attacking some straw man.
daxfohl 10y ago
Sure. From a certain perspective that's correct. If you're a non-parent and work/study productively 16 hours per day 7 days a week without time off and can maintain that, then, from some perspective, you're better. Thing is, in most cases, your value as a software engineer is very marginally related to your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything. In fact an obsession with bleeding-edge technology can be a sign of indifference toward what you're actually being paid to do.
- knorker 10y ago
  > your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything This hypothetical person spending 16 hours a day doesn't have to spend it on latest and greatest, which you and many other comments seem to assume.

by knorker 10y ago

daxfohl 10y ago

Ha, you decide: "Dude we totally have to use this new technology I read about on HN at 2:00 in the morning. It looks so cool!" "Let's use the technology we always use because we know it works for what the client needs and I'll still be able to pick up my kids at 5:30." Who are you giving your money to?

knorker 10y ago
Why do you think that the ONLY way to spend extra time on is on that new thing from HN 2 AM? I'm not following this huge leap that you and other commenters are making. How about choosing between the people who have twice as much experience with managing this Oracle cluster you have. Do you want the one with 10 years experience, or the one with 20 years and is credited in Oracle documentation? (all else being equal)

louhike 10y ago

No, he is just saying that he does not have to worry about being as good. It is just a choice. I do not have children but I do not want to spend much time learning outside of my work. But some parents like to learn outside of work. He does not cite any statistics either so you are making a lot of shortcuts.

richmarr 10y ago
> No, he is just saying that he does not have to worry about being as good. It is just a choice. Also, being "good" isn't simply a function of whether you've read up on the latest tech fad. A lot of the stuff we chase is an incremental improvement (and in some cases a step backwards). Parenting also helps practice empathy, which is an severely underrated skill in technology circles.

ceautery 10y ago

What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children, and our employers find us quite desirable to have around. If you're focusing on learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out, you'll never learn how to lead a team. You'll teach your employer that you can be abused, because you are desperate to impress them. Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. This is a marathon, brother, not a sprint.

knorker 10y ago
> What kind of trolling nonsense is this? The senior engineers I know all have spouses and children Please read what was written, and what I replied. > If you're[…] I'm not. Your comment is completely disconnected from what I said. > learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out Is that the only way you know how to improve yourself professionally? If so then I think you're doing it wrong. If you're a developer doing network stuff, then given a few years you could get a CCIE or something, and learn tonnes of stuff and be a more valuable employee. You don't have to try to stay on top of the latest developments in SDN. That'd probably be a waste of time.
pmarreck 10y ago
> Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. False dichotomy fallacy. There's plenty of programmers I admire who aren't apparently parents. And there's happiness studies which show neither a positive nor a negative gain when parenthood arrives. Curious footnote: I tried to google further studies that creativity goes down once fatherhood strikes (which I have read in the past), and instead found this piece: https://onbeing.org/blog/becoming-a-father-restored-my-creativity/ https://onbeing.org/blog/becoming-a-father-restored-my-creat...

cmrdporcupine 10y ago

No he's saying the definition of "being good" is not obsessively adopting "new technology" but realizing that the core foundations of CS are the core foundations of CS, and doing your job 8 hours a day and learning your core skill set and iterating and practicing on it is in fact all that is needed to produce a good programmer. Frankly I think those of us who have been in the industry over 15 or 20 years know that adopting new technologies is not the hard or important part. Having the wisdom about how, when, and what to apply things, recognizing good engineering, and learning to work well in a team -- that's what's important. Having kids might mean you can't stay up at night learning the latest JS framework -- but that very likely might be a good thing.

knorker 10y ago
Why are you assuming all learning is about "new tech"? How about just taking an online class in old traffic theory, to improve your network coding skills? Your whole comment is attacking some straw man.

daxfohl 10y ago

Sure. From a certain perspective that's correct. If you're a non-parent and work/study productively 16 hours per day 7 days a week without time off and can maintain that, then, from some perspective, you're better. Thing is, in most cases, your value as a software engineer is very marginally related to your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything. In fact an obsession with bleeding-edge technology can be a sign of indifference toward what you're actually being paid to do.

knorker 10y ago
> your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything This hypothetical person spending 16 hours a day doesn't have to spend it on latest and greatest, which you and many other comments seem to assume.