4 ms·

As they say be careful what you wish for, you might get it. A lot of people these days have been raised with propaganda about freedom of speech and other goodne

by devoply 10y ago

As they say be careful what you wish for, you might get it. A lot of people these days have been raised with propaganda about freedom of speech and other goodness. Which were just rhetorical phrases that meant little. When they mean much I am not sure you're going to like the results. Intellectual freedom means the freedom to tell the truth, but also your own truth as well as the truth of your group. All of these various partial truths don't always agree and might not be good from a utilitarian perspective. Not to mention all the spectrum of lies.

mirimir 10y ago
You seem to be arguing against actual freedom of speech. And focusing on the utilitarian importance of agreement with "the truth of your group" vs "the spectrum of lies". The problem is that "truth" is nontrivial to determine, and arguably best approximated through dialog. And without freedom for everyone to make their arguments, there can be no useful dialog.
- devoply 10y ago
  You can make your argument to only those people who share your frame of reference and a certain set of axioms. Everyone else can't even understand where you are coming from. The stupid people always have the intelligent at a disadvantage. And usually there are more or them and fewer of you (the intelligent man).
  - mirimir 10y ago
    It does seem that way, sometimes. But maybe consider this: As soon as you've decided that someone is stupid, you've lost the possibility of communicating effectively with them. Because they're not stupid ;)
    - RealityVoid 10y ago
      > But maybe consider this: As soon as you've decided that someone is stupid, you've lost the possibility of communicating effectively with them. Because they're not stupid ;) I'm sorry, what? This makes no sense, sounds like a platitude. So many questions: 1) Why would you loose posibility to communicate effectively with them? You can still choose to communicate, just at a different level of discourcs or applealing to different talking points than before. Actually, as soon you realise someone is stupid, if you're intelligent enough, you should be able to communicate MORE eaffectively, vecause you know your conversation partner more. 2) They could actually be stupid. There are stupid people on this earth, you know. Not that they're wrthless as a person, or anything, it's just that they don't have the processing power to keep up with certain concepts. And that's fine and normal, such people exist.
      - mirimir 10y ago
        Sure, you can trick people. But this was about having a meaningful discussion, not about winning.

by devoply 10y ago

mirimir 10y ago

You seem to be arguing against actual freedom of speech. And focusing on the utilitarian importance of agreement with "the truth of your group" vs "the spectrum of lies". The problem is that "truth" is nontrivial to determine, and arguably best approximated through dialog. And without freedom for everyone to make their arguments, there can be no useful dialog.

devoply 10y ago
You can make your argument to only those people who share your frame of reference and a certain set of axioms. Everyone else can't even understand where you are coming from. The stupid people always have the intelligent at a disadvantage. And usually there are more or them and fewer of you (the intelligent man).
- mirimir 10y ago
  It does seem that way, sometimes. But maybe consider this: As soon as you've decided that someone is stupid, you've lost the possibility of communicating effectively with them. Because they're not stupid ;)
  - RealityVoid 10y ago
    > But maybe consider this: As soon as you've decided that someone is stupid, you've lost the possibility of communicating effectively with them. Because they're not stupid ;) I'm sorry, what? This makes no sense, sounds like a platitude. So many questions: 1) Why would you loose posibility to communicate effectively with them? You can still choose to communicate, just at a different level of discourcs or applealing to different talking points than before. Actually, as soon you realise someone is stupid, if you're intelligent enough, you should be able to communicate MORE eaffectively, vecause you know your conversation partner more. 2) They could actually be stupid. There are stupid people on this earth, you know. Not that they're wrthless as a person, or anything, it's just that they don't have the processing power to keep up with certain concepts. And that's fine and normal, such people exist.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      Sure, you can trick people. But this was about having a meaningful discussion, not about winning.