4 ms·

Are they as sentient? Do they suffer as much? I don't think there is reason to believe these things.

by kranner 10y ago

soheil 10y ago
Animals shouldn't suffer either if they're raised right. I also don't see how putting a bullet through a cow's head somehow causes any suffering.
- pdexter 10y ago
  The problem is, that's not what's happening. Not everyone who eats cows are getting them from people who treat them as nicely as I guess you claim to. Further, why waste food and water on cows when humans can just eat and drink that themselves? Why raise a cow and then shoot it in the head when you can just, you know, eat plants.
  - soheil 10y ago
    I'd argue it's great for the cow! Think about it they're doing really well as a specie, never before in history they were so successful and enjoyed such high numbers. Their population has simply sore, that however cannot be said about most other species. Also Daniel Dennet gave a TED talk about this. [1] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_warren https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_war...
    - sanswork 10y ago
      If aliens arrived tomorrow and took half the humans to another planet to farm their meat would you think that was great for those humans because we are now a multiplanetary species?
      - soheil 10y ago
        That would be terrible, but if they did that to the cows or plants I wouldn't object. Cows don't understand what's happening to them we would! Unless we wouldn't as aliens might already be secretly controlling us and that's why we don't understand "the meaning of life" etc. in which case it's not that bad is it?
        kranner 10y ago
        > Cows don't understand what's happening to them I don't believe this is as true as you seem to think. Supposing someone proved to you with some future subjectivity-detecting tricorder that cows do understand all they go through, will you change your mind about the humane bullet method?
        soheil 10y ago
        Yes and then I'll use my transporter to beam myself to the past to right all the wrongs. > cows do understand all they go through Also you seem to be exaggerating a bit, what do you exactly mean by all? Are you talking about their entire life or just when they're about to be slaughtered, because I think for most parts cows have a pretty happy life. The slaughtering could be done more precisely and quickly but that's really just negligence on the part of some bad actors and not something that is inherently difficult to fix.
        kranner 10y ago
        So it should be perfectly all right to raise humans for slaughter then, as long as we can manage to keep them unaware that they are going to be slaughtered until the last moment?
        soheil 10y ago
        If cows killed other cows I'd think there was something wrong. "Cows don't understand what's happening to them, we would! Unless we wouldn't, as aliens might already be secretly controlling us and that's why we don't understand 'the meaning of life' etc. in which case it's not that bad is it?"
- pyre 10y ago
  > Animals shouldn't suffer either if they're raised right. This is not possible at-scale. Also, do you really think that giant corporations, that would willingly throw humans under the bus by the truckload to save a few dollars, give a crap about the suffering of an animal? Especially an animal that is slated for the slaughterhouse anyways? Just look at how they react to undercover videos that expose illegal practices behind their closed doors. They immediately start lobbying for industry-specific laws that make it illegal to do undercover investigative journalism of their industry (the so-called AgGag bills). They can't even stay within the letter of the current (and fairly lax) laws on how they are supposed to operate, and when exposed find it more logical to (attempt to) make it illegal to expose their crimes rather than to just stop committing said crimes.
  - soheil 10y ago
    So to me this makes it even lesser of a problem namely all we have to do is fix the legal system and stop them from lobbying aggressively instead of most of the world population all of a sudden changing its diet entirely.
    - pyre 10y ago
      Your solution here is laughable. A couple of points: 1. I mentioned that the current laws are lax for a reason. There really isn't much in the way of controls over animal agriculture other than things that might affect public health and safety. Getting all of these companies to play ball with the current legal environment will not get us anywhere near where we would need to be. 2. The idea that "all" we have to do is prevent them from lobbying and enforce the current laws is hopelessly naive and not a light undertaking. (Especially in areas where this industry is the main industry / employer). You're also ignoring all of the government subsidies that are already poured into this industry. The government has been in bed with this industry for a long time.
      - soheil 10y ago
        Why do you not believe in the political system and the power that comes with that? We the people can change laws if we choose to, to sit on the bench and cry foul however will not get you anywhere. You live in (presumably US) the freest country in the world and want to take things in your hand while not believing in democracy and convincing your fellow citizens to see eye to eye with you on issues like this? No one said changing the system is easy it takes dedication and effort if you truly believe evil companies are the problem force them to follow the law if you think the laws are in adequate lobby for new ones. Political passivity is not the answer. I highly recommend reading Beyond Fear by Bruce Schneier [1]. [1] https://www.schneier.com/books/beyond_fear/ https://www.schneier.com/books/beyond_fear/
stagbeetle 10y ago
Plants can experience pain and do, in-fact, communicate with other plants, animals, and fungi.
- mythrwy 10y ago
  Doesn't pain require having nerves?
  - stagbeetle 10y ago
    No. Plants do have a nerve-like (similar, but not the same) structures that send out electric signals.

Are they as sentient? Do they suffer as much? I don't think there is reason to believe these things.

by kranner 10y ago

Are they as sentient? Do they suffer as much? I don't think there is reason to believe these things.

Animals shouldn't suffer either if they're raised right. I also don't see how putting a bullet through a cow's head somehow causes any suffering.

pdexter 10y ago
The problem is, that's not what's happening. Not everyone who eats cows are getting them from people who treat them as nicely as I guess you claim to. Further, why waste food and water on cows when humans can just eat and drink that themselves? Why raise a cow and then shoot it in the head when you can just, you know, eat plants.
- soheil 10y ago
  I'd argue it's great for the cow! Think about it they're doing really well as a specie, never before in history they were so successful and enjoyed such high numbers. Their population has simply sore, that however cannot be said about most other species. Also Daniel Dennet gave a TED talk about this. [1] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_warren https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_war...
  - sanswork 10y ago
    If aliens arrived tomorrow and took half the humans to another planet to farm their meat would you think that was great for those humans because we are now a multiplanetary species?
    - soheil 10y ago
      That would be terrible, but if they did that to the cows or plants I wouldn't object. Cows don't understand what's happening to them we would! Unless we wouldn't as aliens might already be secretly controlling us and that's why we don't understand "the meaning of life" etc. in which case it's not that bad is it?
      - kranner 10y ago
        > Cows don't understand what's happening to them I don't believe this is as true as you seem to think. Supposing someone proved to you with some future subjectivity-detecting tricorder that cows do understand all they go through, will you change your mind about the humane bullet method?
        soheil 10y ago
        Yes and then I'll use my transporter to beam myself to the past to right all the wrongs. > cows do understand all they go through Also you seem to be exaggerating a bit, what do you exactly mean by all? Are you talking about their entire life or just when they're about to be slaughtered, because I think for most parts cows have a pretty happy life. The slaughtering could be done more precisely and quickly but that's really just negligence on the part of some bad actors and not something that is inherently difficult to fix.
        kranner 10y ago
        So it should be perfectly all right to raise humans for slaughter then, as long as we can manage to keep them unaware that they are going to be slaughtered until the last moment?
        soheil 10y ago
        If cows killed other cows I'd think there was something wrong. "Cows don't understand what's happening to them, we would! Unless we wouldn't, as aliens might already be secretly controlling us and that's why we don't understand 'the meaning of life' etc. in which case it's not that bad is it?"
pyre 10y ago
> Animals shouldn't suffer either if they're raised right. This is not possible at-scale. Also, do you really think that giant corporations, that would willingly throw humans under the bus by the truckload to save a few dollars, give a crap about the suffering of an animal? Especially an animal that is slated for the slaughterhouse anyways? Just look at how they react to undercover videos that expose illegal practices behind their closed doors. They immediately start lobbying for industry-specific laws that make it illegal to do undercover investigative journalism of their industry (the so-called AgGag bills). They can't even stay within the letter of the current (and fairly lax) laws on how they are supposed to operate, and when exposed find it more logical to (attempt to) make it illegal to expose their crimes rather than to just stop committing said crimes.
- soheil 10y ago
  So to me this makes it even lesser of a problem namely all we have to do is fix the legal system and stop them from lobbying aggressively instead of most of the world population all of a sudden changing its diet entirely.
  - pyre 10y ago
    Your solution here is laughable. A couple of points: 1. I mentioned that the current laws are lax for a reason. There really isn't much in the way of controls over animal agriculture other than things that might affect public health and safety. Getting all of these companies to play ball with the current legal environment will not get us anywhere near where we would need to be. 2. The idea that "all" we have to do is prevent them from lobbying and enforce the current laws is hopelessly naive and not a light undertaking. (Especially in areas where this industry is the main industry / employer). You're also ignoring all of the government subsidies that are already poured into this industry. The government has been in bed with this industry for a long time.
    - soheil 10y ago
      Why do you not believe in the political system and the power that comes with that? We the people can change laws if we choose to, to sit on the bench and cry foul however will not get you anywhere. You live in (presumably US) the freest country in the world and want to take things in your hand while not believing in democracy and convincing your fellow citizens to see eye to eye with you on issues like this? No one said changing the system is easy it takes dedication and effort if you truly believe evil companies are the problem force them to follow the law if you think the laws are in adequate lobby for new ones. Political passivity is not the answer. I highly recommend reading Beyond Fear by Bruce Schneier [1]. [1] https://www.schneier.com/books/beyond_fear/ https://www.schneier.com/books/beyond_fear/

stagbeetle 10y ago

Plants can experience pain and do, in-fact, communicate with other plants, animals, and fungi.

mythrwy 10y ago
Doesn't pain require having nerves?
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  No. Plants do have a nerve-like (similar, but not the same) structures that send out electric signals.