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Interesting to see if the company actually shifts it's culture. My wife is vegetarian so I'm exposed to quite a bit of different sources of veggie protein. My

Interesting to see if the company actually shifts it's culture. My wife is vegetarian so I'm exposed to quite a bit of different sources of veggie protein. My concern is that the fake meat stuff is actually kind of expensive compared to meat. If it was cheaper I can see more folks move in that direction.

muninn_ 10y ago
I'm willing to bet that this is for two reasons: 1. It's expensive because people with more money are more likely to be vegetarian. 2. We don't pay for the true cost of meat, i.e. green house gas emissions, water usage, transportation costs, etc....
- nine_k 10y ago
  How is water and transportation not paid for?
  - rflrob 10y ago
    In a lot of the Western US, water usage is based on decades-old interstate compacts, where future water rights are based on a use-it-or-lose-it system. I'm not necessarily in favor of the extreme unregulated end of the free market either, but the system as it stands seems to me to be a market distortion that incentivizes people towards heavy water-usage activities (ranching, raising of water-heavy feed crops like alfalfa), rather than what a purely free market would apportion. See, for example, https://projects.propublica.org/killing-the-colorado/story/wasting-water-out-west-use-it-or-lose-it https://projects.propublica.org/killing-the-colorado/story/w...
  - tekklloneer 10y ago
    Massive government subsidies and tax breaks. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, but it does make the playing field unfair.
  - arcticbull 10y ago
    What isn't paid for is the cost of feed. Corn is the major foodstuff of both birds and, sadly, commercial cows. Corn is subsidized to below the cost of production by the US government. Transportation is not paid for, really, because the highways are maintained without usage fees.
- mrspeaker 10y ago
  I'm a vegetarian and I buy fake meats ('cause I miss meat). My theory about why they are relatively expensive is that vegetarianism is seen as "healthy" and people think that healthy things need to cost more than non-healthy things. Kind of "If it's cheap, it can't be healthy". And that's a win-win for the companies producing it, and why I think there has recently been a surge in startups making fake meat!
- ceras 10y ago
  Just to add to this, there's also #3: lack of scale. IIRC Beyond Meat has also stated that with comparable scale they could match the price of similar beef products. Marketing speak or not, I'm inclined to believe it since it's clearly a niche market right now, and vegan products like Just Mayo that have achieved scale like Just Mayo are very cheap -- enough to convince low-end, mass market establishments like 7-11 to default to it. More evidence: price of tofu is more comparable to meat in places with more Asian and international cuisines. E.g. tofu is cheaper here in at my Manhattan Whole Foods than in my southern hometown's supermarkets, despite most foods being more expensive. Even cheaper in Asian supermarkets.
ra1n85 10y ago
I'd worry about phytoestrogens as well. There are compounds in plant based foods that must be consumed in moderation (as all things). A vegetarian diet is superior in many ways to the modern western diet, but not without its own risks/disadvantages.
- xexers 10y ago
  The evidence for soy phytoestrogens affecting us is weak. Dairy has a substantial amount of estrogen as well: http://www.livestrong.com/article/554285-does-milk-raise-estrogen-in-men/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/554285-does-milk-raise-est... Although, the evidence that it affects men is also weak.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    Anecdotally, my vegetarian friend was growing breasts and the doctor told him to stop eating as much soy which seemed to work.
viraptor 10y ago
It also doesn't taste like meat. I will happily eat a vegan meal that tastes good. I'll eat meat that tastes good. But I just don't see a point in buying a "soy chicken schnitzel" which does not taste like chicken at all. Why should I be interested in that product in the first place? Hopefully one day we'll get to actually replicating the taste properly. Or growing meat synthetically. I'm happy to move to either.
- nilved 10y ago
  Replicating the taste is the wrong way to go about it. Vegan food can taste just as good as meat and cheese, but it will never taste like meat and cheese because it's not meat and cheese.
  - xexers 10y ago
    Agreed. People should stop going for a veggie burger that tastes like a beef burger. Instead, compare a beef burger to completely different, high quality, vegan meal like a veggie green curry, tikka masala, or burrito.
    - marak830 10y ago
      (note: I'm a chef of a fine dining restaurant, so take this how you will). Telling people to change won't work. But at the same time, people in my position(available to influence flavours of a region), should do our part in not restricting ourselves to animal products. This I have seen happen over the past 10 years, the amount of reduced meat or no meat items on my menus has increased, as well as doing more to use sustainable products. On a side note about these types of foods: don't look at the bottom of the restaurant chains to see the future trends. They will only cater to the safe bets(huge cheap steaks and battery style farming practices), due to their low margins. It took me a long time to get to a position where - as the head chef - I could experiment with a large portion of my menu being more land friendly(which for me is reduced meat based portions, higher quality locally sourced ingredients and more renewable products).
      - 10y ago
nilved 10y ago
This problem has nothing to do with vegan foods. The problem is that meat and dairy benefit from government subsidies. This might be because of lobbyists, but that's none of my business.

muninn_ 10y ago

I'm willing to bet that this is for two reasons: 1. It's expensive because people with more money are more likely to be vegetarian. 2. We don't pay for the true cost of meat, i.e. green house gas emissions, water usage, transportation costs, etc....

nine_k 10y ago
How is water and transportation not paid for?
- rflrob 10y ago
  In a lot of the Western US, water usage is based on decades-old interstate compacts, where future water rights are based on a use-it-or-lose-it system. I'm not necessarily in favor of the extreme unregulated end of the free market either, but the system as it stands seems to me to be a market distortion that incentivizes people towards heavy water-usage activities (ranching, raising of water-heavy feed crops like alfalfa), rather than what a purely free market would apportion. See, for example, https://projects.propublica.org/killing-the-colorado/story/wasting-water-out-west-use-it-or-lose-it https://projects.propublica.org/killing-the-colorado/story/w...
- tekklloneer 10y ago
  Massive government subsidies and tax breaks. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, but it does make the playing field unfair.
- arcticbull 10y ago
  What isn't paid for is the cost of feed. Corn is the major foodstuff of both birds and, sadly, commercial cows. Corn is subsidized to below the cost of production by the US government. Transportation is not paid for, really, because the highways are maintained without usage fees.
mrspeaker 10y ago
I'm a vegetarian and I buy fake meats ('cause I miss meat). My theory about why they are relatively expensive is that vegetarianism is seen as "healthy" and people think that healthy things need to cost more than non-healthy things. Kind of "If it's cheap, it can't be healthy". And that's a win-win for the companies producing it, and why I think there has recently been a surge in startups making fake meat!
ceras 10y ago
Just to add to this, there's also #3: lack of scale. IIRC Beyond Meat has also stated that with comparable scale they could match the price of similar beef products. Marketing speak or not, I'm inclined to believe it since it's clearly a niche market right now, and vegan products like Just Mayo that have achieved scale like Just Mayo are very cheap -- enough to convince low-end, mass market establishments like 7-11 to default to it. More evidence: price of tofu is more comparable to meat in places with more Asian and international cuisines. E.g. tofu is cheaper here in at my Manhattan Whole Foods than in my southern hometown's supermarkets, despite most foods being more expensive. Even cheaper in Asian supermarkets.

ra1n85 10y ago

I'd worry about phytoestrogens as well. There are compounds in plant based foods that must be consumed in moderation (as all things). A vegetarian diet is superior in many ways to the modern western diet, but not without its own risks/disadvantages.

xexers 10y ago
The evidence for soy phytoestrogens affecting us is weak. Dairy has a substantial amount of estrogen as well: http://www.livestrong.com/article/554285-does-milk-raise-estrogen-in-men/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/554285-does-milk-raise-est... Although, the evidence that it affects men is also weak.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Anecdotally, my vegetarian friend was growing breasts and the doctor told him to stop eating as much soy which seemed to work.

viraptor 10y ago

It also doesn't taste like meat. I will happily eat a vegan meal that tastes good. I'll eat meat that tastes good. But I just don't see a point in buying a "soy chicken schnitzel" which does not taste like chicken at all. Why should I be interested in that product in the first place? Hopefully one day we'll get to actually replicating the taste properly. Or growing meat synthetically. I'm happy to move to either.

nilved 10y ago
Replicating the taste is the wrong way to go about it. Vegan food can taste just as good as meat and cheese, but it will never taste like meat and cheese because it's not meat and cheese.
- xexers 10y ago
  Agreed. People should stop going for a veggie burger that tastes like a beef burger. Instead, compare a beef burger to completely different, high quality, vegan meal like a veggie green curry, tikka masala, or burrito.
  - marak830 10y ago
    (note: I'm a chef of a fine dining restaurant, so take this how you will). Telling people to change won't work. But at the same time, people in my position(available to influence flavours of a region), should do our part in not restricting ourselves to animal products. This I have seen happen over the past 10 years, the amount of reduced meat or no meat items on my menus has increased, as well as doing more to use sustainable products. On a side note about these types of foods: don't look at the bottom of the restaurant chains to see the future trends. They will only cater to the safe bets(huge cheap steaks and battery style farming practices), due to their low margins. It took me a long time to get to a position where - as the head chef - I could experiment with a large portion of my menu being more land friendly(which for me is reduced meat based portions, higher quality locally sourced ingredients and more renewable products).
    - 10y ago

nilved 10y ago

This problem has nothing to do with vegan foods. The problem is that meat and dairy benefit from government subsidies. This might be because of lobbyists, but that's none of my business.