6 ms·

For the record; no I don't believe that is a solution either.

by ErrantX 16y ago

scythe 16y ago
It is, however, really the only alternative to legalization. Decriminalization is stupid. Dispensary systems are stupid. Coffee shops are stupid. Decriminalization is stupid because the implication is that cannabis is evil, and the only reason people want to smoke it is that they're addicted. This is false. The "push toward treatment" isn't helpful for anyone who isn't addicted and doesn't want to be treated, like me. Plus there's the implication that selling someone to someone who asks for it is somehow evil, which is even worse ("Selling is legal! Fucking is legal! Why isn't selling fucking legal?!"). Dispensary systems are stupid because dishonesty is baked (haha) into the system. The South Park episode Medicinal Fried Chicken is a decent explanation, but the short of it is that people fake illness to get weed. Granted, this is like people faking illness to get painkillers -- but since cannabis is significantly safer than opioids and benzodiazepines, doctors are significantly less likely to care. It's not an issue with physical consequences, since cannabis is extremely safe when used under medical supervision, just the fact that lying becomes so much more prevalent. Coffee shops are lame because free markets work[1], so why don't we have one? They're not that bad, though -- the implementation of such a system would bump the legalization of cannabis way down my priority list. What really gets me on this is that people conflate the question "should cannabis be legal" with the question "should you smoke cannabis". Nobody conflates the legality of trampolines with the safety of trampolines. I find it incredibly disheartening when people I know -- smart people, in most respects -- respond to legalization with the idiotic knee-jerks "but it's dangerous!", "but my friend does nothing but smoke weed", ad absurdum. I know people who do nothing but play video games. I know at least one person who quit his job and left everyone he knew to become a paragliding instructor. He took a huge pay cut, too. And this latter example, I think, illustrates the biggest issue I have with arguments like yours: Who the hell do you think you are that you can dictate what someone does with their life? If it's what they enjoy, they can go for it. Even if it is a bad decision -- you really can't outlaw bad decisions, because it's hard to say what is a bad decision. Thing is, the sort of "always-on" lifestyle, that sort where cannabis (also other distracting activities) is most likely to interfere, really isn't a good fit for some people. Some people burn out on weed, some burn out on other things. Thing is, sometimes people just burn out. I think there are a lot of people who come into this argument from a pro-prohibition point of view because someone close to them changed after they started smoking marijuana. And I think that this is akin to blaming a spark for a bomb. The thing is, that your stock-broker friend may in fact have been unhappy as a stock broker. It is possible, even likely, from my anecdotal experience, that he latched onto weed because he didn't like where he was in life. It doesn't really matter if you think he should have liked where he was in life. There are plenty of harm reduction arguments for legalization, but I prefer the libertarian argument because, I think, it most directly refutes the central point of the popular anti-legalization arguments. [1]: with a few exceptions.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Decriminalization is stupid because the implication is that cannabis is evil, and the only reason people want to smoke it is that they're addicted. And yet decriminalization has proven tentatively successful when trialled. If your issue is that cannabis use is still looked on as evil (that's something of a strong word; I suspect only real puritans view it as evil :)) then possibly that is something we can address. However on the other hand I suspect the idea of cannabis being looked on as bad/evil/nasty would be unaffected by decriminalization/legalization - at least in the short term. Speaking personally I'd like to get to a happy medium where you can have the choice of cannabis if you like, but it's not so readily available that it becomes the kind of widespread habit smoking became. I'd like to see a society were cannabis use didn't raise any eyebrows and was accepted as something people chose to do. What really gets me on this is that people conflate the question "should cannabis be legal" with the question "should you smoke cannabis" I've personally tried to be very specific when replying here regarding this issue. I'm open to discuss the former and as to the latter I have a personal opinion - which is that, on balance, I think smoking cannabis is probably bad for you. Who the hell do you think you are that you can dictate what someone does with their life? That made me a bit angry to be honest; because I don't make personal judgements like that! Definitely pro-choice here and I tend to get angry when people berate my friends for drug use (it's not their place! as you say). Sure, if someone asks me the outright question: "Tom, should I smoke cannabis" I would say no (and then try to back it up, obviously). I'll maybe, maybe, try and raise the issue with a close friend if they seem to be struggling/having issues due to drug use, but that's it. As you say these are 2 different issues and we should definitely address them seperately. As a quick further comment: I think it is absolutely fine to talk to people about their "bad" life choices. One of the worst life choices I nearly made was to do architecture rather than engineering - I'd have been a shit architect but it had been my passion from a very young age. A few close friends/family helped to show me it was a poor choice and for that I am forever thankful (I probably owe most of my current success to that single decision). So, as long as your not forcing or overbearing on anyway it seems fair to lay out why they might be making a bad choice :) Thing is, sometimes people just burn out. Agreed, ny friend was not one of them though. As I explained elsewhere a) we were extremely close during that period and b) it was less a proof that cannabis use was dangerous (I concede a single example is useless for that) as a rebuttal to someone else who suggested that cannabis could not have that affect. The thing is, that your stock-broker friend may in fact have been unhappy as a stock broker. It's a really sad story. He came out of rehab at the end of last year and is currently working in the city and doing moderately well - but his concentration is shot and his spark/skill aren't what they were. It's sad but, yes, not proof that all cannabis use ruins lives.

For the record; no I don't believe that is a solution either.

by ErrantX 16y ago

For the record; no I don't believe that is a solution either.

It is, however, really the only alternative to legalization. Decriminalization is stupid. Dispensary systems are stupid. Coffee shops are stupid. Decriminalization is stupid because the implication is that cannabis is evil, and the only reason people want to smoke it is that they're addicted. This is false. The "push toward treatment" isn't helpful for anyone who isn't addicted and doesn't want to be treated, like me. Plus there's the implication that selling someone to someone who asks for it is somehow evil, which is even worse ("Selling is legal! Fucking is legal! Why isn't selling fucking legal?!"). Dispensary systems are stupid because dishonesty is baked (haha) into the system. The South Park episode Medicinal Fried Chicken is a decent explanation, but the short of it is that people fake illness to get weed. Granted, this is like people faking illness to get painkillers -- but since cannabis is significantly safer than opioids and benzodiazepines, doctors are significantly less likely to care. It's not an issue with physical consequences, since cannabis is extremely safe when used under medical supervision, just the fact that lying becomes so much more prevalent. Coffee shops are lame because free markets work[1], so why don't we have one? They're not that bad, though -- the implementation of such a system would bump the legalization of cannabis way down my priority list. What really gets me on this is that people conflate the question "should cannabis be legal" with the question "should you smoke cannabis". Nobody conflates the legality of trampolines with the safety of trampolines. I find it incredibly disheartening when people I know -- smart people, in most respects -- respond to legalization with the idiotic knee-jerks "but it's dangerous!", "but my friend does nothing but smoke weed", ad absurdum. I know people who do nothing but play video games. I know at least one person who quit his job and left everyone he knew to become a paragliding instructor. He took a huge pay cut, too. And this latter example, I think, illustrates the biggest issue I have with arguments like yours: Who the hell do you think you are that you can dictate what someone does with their life? If it's what they enjoy, they can go for it. Even if it is a bad decision -- you really can't outlaw bad decisions, because it's hard to say what is a bad decision. Thing is, the sort of "always-on" lifestyle, that sort where cannabis (also other distracting activities) is most likely to interfere, really isn't a good fit for some people. Some people burn out on weed, some burn out on other things. Thing is, sometimes people just burn out. I think there are a lot of people who come into this argument from a pro-prohibition point of view because someone close to them changed after they started smoking marijuana. And I think that this is akin to blaming a spark for a bomb. The thing is, that your stock-broker friend may in fact have been unhappy as a stock broker. It is possible, even likely, from my anecdotal experience, that he latched onto weed because he didn't like where he was in life. It doesn't really matter if you think he should have liked where he was in life. There are plenty of harm reduction arguments for legalization, but I prefer the libertarian argument because, I think, it most directly refutes the central point of the popular anti-legalization arguments. [1]: with a few exceptions.

ErrantX 16y ago
Decriminalization is stupid because the implication is that cannabis is evil, and the only reason people want to smoke it is that they're addicted. And yet decriminalization has proven tentatively successful when trialled. If your issue is that cannabis use is still looked on as evil (that's something of a strong word; I suspect only real puritans view it as evil :)) then possibly that is something we can address. However on the other hand I suspect the idea of cannabis being looked on as bad/evil/nasty would be unaffected by decriminalization/legalization - at least in the short term. Speaking personally I'd like to get to a happy medium where you can have the choice of cannabis if you like, but it's not so readily available that it becomes the kind of widespread habit smoking became. I'd like to see a society were cannabis use didn't raise any eyebrows and was accepted as something people chose to do. What really gets me on this is that people conflate the question "should cannabis be legal" with the question "should you smoke cannabis" I've personally tried to be very specific when replying here regarding this issue. I'm open to discuss the former and as to the latter I have a personal opinion - which is that, on balance, I think smoking cannabis is probably bad for you. Who the hell do you think you are that you can dictate what someone does with their life? That made me a bit angry to be honest; because I don't make personal judgements like that! Definitely pro-choice here and I tend to get angry when people berate my friends for drug use (it's not their place! as you say). Sure, if someone asks me the outright question: "Tom, should I smoke cannabis" I would say no (and then try to back it up, obviously). I'll maybe, maybe, try and raise the issue with a close friend if they seem to be struggling/having issues due to drug use, but that's it. As you say these are 2 different issues and we should definitely address them seperately. As a quick further comment: I think it is absolutely fine to talk to people about their "bad" life choices. One of the worst life choices I nearly made was to do architecture rather than engineering - I'd have been a shit architect but it had been my passion from a very young age. A few close friends/family helped to show me it was a poor choice and for that I am forever thankful (I probably owe most of my current success to that single decision). So, as long as your not forcing or overbearing on anyway it seems fair to lay out why they might be making a bad choice :) Thing is, sometimes people just burn out. Agreed, ny friend was not one of them though. As I explained elsewhere a) we were extremely close during that period and b) it was less a proof that cannabis use was dangerous (I concede a single example is useless for that) as a rebuttal to someone else who suggested that cannabis could not have that affect. The thing is, that your stock-broker friend may in fact have been unhappy as a stock broker. It's a really sad story. He came out of rehab at the end of last year and is currently working in the city and doing moderately well - but his concentration is shot and his spark/skill aren't what they were. It's sad but, yes, not proof that all cannabis use ruins lives.