4 ms·

Do we though? What if the current system is the least bad option out of a set of much worse alternatives?

Apocryphon 10y ago
Maybe we should try a few more options before deciding that we're in the best of all solutions.
zzzcpan 10y ago
Before oversupply of programmers simply talking to people for a few minutes was good enough to determine their competence.
- lj3 10y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is essentially what I suggest for an interview process and I'm not the only one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyWvJdsDRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyWvJdsDRI
- watwut 10y ago
  That favours people with high charizma and pleasant personality (not same as pleasant to work with) regardless of skills or work ethics. Compared to those, whiteboard or live coding is improvement.
  - jakebasile 10y ago
    Why have only one option that caters to those that can memorize algorithms? Have multiple types of interviews instead of forcing everyone to take the same type.
    - komali2 10y ago
      You can tailor the whiteboard problems to be something more than just memorizing algorithms. My company I'm at now whiteboarded with me bugs they found on my personal website.
    - hackinthebochs 10y ago
      Always this "memorizing algorithms" strawman. If you can't code basic list/tree/graph algorithms on the fly then there are serious holes in your programming ability. This has nothing to do with memorization.
      - throwaway9475 10y ago
        How often do you waltz into work and write list/tree/graph algorithms on a daily basis?
        hackinthebochs 10y ago
        But its not about the list/tree/graph algorithms, its about having the mental flexibility to code the algorithms on the fly. If you can't do a depth-first search on a tree after being given the definition and time to think about it then you may lack the mental flexibility to do arbitrary algorithms in any domain. Intelligence is unspecific to domain, and so showing intelligence in one domain correlates with outcomes in other domains. The list/tree/graph algorithms are just a microcosm of programming skill in general. Also, my codebase does have an honest to god tree traversal, on the front end no less. This stuff shouldn't be seen as esoteric trivia.
        throwaway9475 10y ago
        > If you can't do a depth-first search on a tree after being given the definition and time to think about it then you may lack the mental flexibility to do arbitrary algorithms in any domain. It's this condescending attitude that ensures that companies only hire recent grads instead of people with actual software development experience. I will write you a depth-first search (assuming that, god forbid, my libraries don't have that functionality for some reason) if it's not a contrived example in an interview. But I have to say, so far, 99% of my pure algorithms code have been contrived interview questions. If you can't do depth-first search in a stressful interview situation that you sneaked away from your actual job for, you might just be a human being. But either way, if your interview process is only interested in testing my knowledge of trivia, instead of my actual development skills (like how I manage complexity or design systems) then I think I'd rather work for more competent people.
- flukus 10y ago
  When was this? It hasn't been the case for the decade plus before I entered the industry and it was recognized as a problem well before that.
collyw 10y ago
The best interview I have had in recent times, I took my laptop along with me and showed some code I had been working on. The interviewer asked me questions about it, and I explained why I did it that way. He asked me to add a it of functionality to it and I did it there and then. That's real work that I had been doing, so I was familiar with it, he got to see me code. No stress for me, and I am pretty sure he god a better idea of my ability to code than any of the other nonsense methods described.

Maybe we should try a few more options before deciding that we're in the best of all solutions.

Before oversupply of programmers simply talking to people for a few minutes was good enough to determine their competence.

lj3 10y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is essentially what I suggest for an interview process and I'm not the only one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyWvJdsDRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyWvJdsDRI
watwut 10y ago
That favours people with high charizma and pleasant personality (not same as pleasant to work with) regardless of skills or work ethics. Compared to those, whiteboard or live coding is improvement.
- jakebasile 10y ago
  Why have only one option that caters to those that can memorize algorithms? Have multiple types of interviews instead of forcing everyone to take the same type.
  - komali2 10y ago
    You can tailor the whiteboard problems to be something more than just memorizing algorithms. My company I'm at now whiteboarded with me bugs they found on my personal website.
  - hackinthebochs 10y ago
    Always this "memorizing algorithms" strawman. If you can't code basic list/tree/graph algorithms on the fly then there are serious holes in your programming ability. This has nothing to do with memorization.
    - throwaway9475 10y ago
      How often do you waltz into work and write list/tree/graph algorithms on a daily basis?
      - hackinthebochs 10y ago
        But its not about the list/tree/graph algorithms, its about having the mental flexibility to code the algorithms on the fly. If you can't do a depth-first search on a tree after being given the definition and time to think about it then you may lack the mental flexibility to do arbitrary algorithms in any domain. Intelligence is unspecific to domain, and so showing intelligence in one domain correlates with outcomes in other domains. The list/tree/graph algorithms are just a microcosm of programming skill in general. Also, my codebase does have an honest to god tree traversal, on the front end no less. This stuff shouldn't be seen as esoteric trivia.
        throwaway9475 10y ago
        > If you can't do a depth-first search on a tree after being given the definition and time to think about it then you may lack the mental flexibility to do arbitrary algorithms in any domain. It's this condescending attitude that ensures that companies only hire recent grads instead of people with actual software development experience. I will write you a depth-first search (assuming that, god forbid, my libraries don't have that functionality for some reason) if it's not a contrived example in an interview. But I have to say, so far, 99% of my pure algorithms code have been contrived interview questions. If you can't do depth-first search in a stressful interview situation that you sneaked away from your actual job for, you might just be a human being. But either way, if your interview process is only interested in testing my knowledge of trivia, instead of my actual development skills (like how I manage complexity or design systems) then I think I'd rather work for more competent people.
flukus 10y ago
When was this? It hasn't been the case for the decade plus before I entered the industry and it was recognized as a problem well before that.

collyw 10y ago

The best interview I have had in recent times, I took my laptop along with me and showed some code I had been working on. The interviewer asked me questions about it, and I explained why I did it that way. He asked me to add a it of functionality to it and I did it there and then. That's real work that I had been doing, so I was familiar with it, he got to see me code. No stress for me, and I am pretty sure he god a better idea of my ability to code than any of the other nonsense methods described.