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The issue isn't facts. The issue is our worldview. If it is a binary worldview (Good vs Evil) then what we don't agree with is always bad/evil (Black Hat Cowboy

by baldfat 10y ago

The issue isn't facts. The issue is our worldview. If it is a binary worldview (Good vs Evil) then what we don't agree with is always bad/evil (Black Hat Cowboy) and what we do agree is good/good (White Hat Cowboy). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_white_hat_symbolism_in_film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_white_hat_symbolism_... So when our side makes a mistake we defend and spin till it is okay for us to still think of them as wearing a White Cowboy Hat. Anything good will also have conspiracies and spin so that they always wearing a Black Cowboy Hat. If you want evidence ask anyone with a strong feeling for Trump/Clinton and you will see this in action. The issue is when people change their minds (with a binary worldview) it isn't accepting a small fact but it is a whole worldview change of astronomical proportions. I feel that people have gotten more and more binary and we need more shades of gray where it isn't world changing to accept a problem with a fact. From Asia thinking about American Worldview: http://www.atimes.com/article/americas-binary-worldview-killed-nuance-politics/ http://www.atimes.com/article/americas-binary-worldview-kill...

matt_wulfeck 10y ago
That's an extremely oversimplified explanation of the world. In my experience a lot of misunderstanding comes not from lack of facts, but a lack or difference in perspective. Hardly anyone even feels the need to justify their actions, let alone squeeze it into some bizarre cowboy metaphor.
- Spellman 10y ago
  Or, put another way, no one think they're the villain/wrong. Which aligns with what the studies seem to indicate. Often the strongest objections arise in a subject that we hold very dear as part of our identity.
- baldfat 10y ago
  To think in this example of a binary worldview in logical thinking it would be a genetic fallacy. Everything that comes from one person is good and everything that comes from another person is bad/evil. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic >That's an extremely oversimplified explanation of the world. It isn't a over oversimplified it is an actual legitimate worldview in Philosophy/Ethics for many individuals. There is not one worldview that is up to each individual and different cultures. I wasn't trying to paint everyone but I am stating that many people absolutely think this way.
fnovd 10y ago
>I feel that people have gotten more and more binary and we need more shades of gray What about people who think we need more binary thinking and fewer shades of gray? How do you even form a nuanced (gray) argument against that kind of dogmatism? Where do you draw the line against line-drawing without being hypocritical? This isn't just rhetorical: this is a problem we're struggling with as a society. People are intellectually exhausted and are drawn to ideologies that answer their questions for them in a clear, unambiguous way. We're in an ideological arms race, becoming more polarized and less rational merely as a survival mechanism.
- VLM 10y ago
  The hidden lesson of 1984 is there is no answer once identity politics are in play. "Four legs good, two legs bad." is already past the point of no return and there is no "a society" as you quote but two battling for supremacy. Historically we have little evidence of solutions other than civil wars. Asking how to roll back identity politics without a physical war is like debating strategies to avoid nuclear war after the missiles have launched but before the mushroom clouds form. Its a little too late for that and there really isn't any point in wasting limited time in trying to roll back or blamestorming in circular firing squads.
  - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
    Could you clarify what you mean by identity politics? I'm mostly used to see them in that gay people, trans people exist are considered identity politics. It's confusing that they are considered a politics that demands for more binary. Wouldn't the acceptance of sexual and gender diversity actually be less Binary than the total rejection of any sexuality and gender identity besides cis and hetereo?
- tremon 10y ago
  Where do you draw the line against line-drawing without being hypocritical? You challenge their support. Continue to push them to draw more lines, until they've drawn so many lines that they're all alone inside their fence. Try to convince them that no one matches up to their worldview, not even their family and not even themselves.

by baldfat 10y ago

matt_wulfeck 10y ago

That's an extremely oversimplified explanation of the world. In my experience a lot of misunderstanding comes not from lack of facts, but a lack or difference in perspective. Hardly anyone even feels the need to justify their actions, let alone squeeze it into some bizarre cowboy metaphor.

Spellman 10y ago
Or, put another way, no one think they're the villain/wrong. Which aligns with what the studies seem to indicate. Often the strongest objections arise in a subject that we hold very dear as part of our identity.
baldfat 10y ago
To think in this example of a binary worldview in logical thinking it would be a genetic fallacy. Everything that comes from one person is good and everything that comes from another person is bad/evil. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic >That's an extremely oversimplified explanation of the world. It isn't a over oversimplified it is an actual legitimate worldview in Philosophy/Ethics for many individuals. There is not one worldview that is up to each individual and different cultures. I wasn't trying to paint everyone but I am stating that many people absolutely think this way.

fnovd 10y ago

>I feel that people have gotten more and more binary and we need more shades of gray What about people who think we need more binary thinking and fewer shades of gray? How do you even form a nuanced (gray) argument against that kind of dogmatism? Where do you draw the line against line-drawing without being hypocritical? This isn't just rhetorical: this is a problem we're struggling with as a society. People are intellectually exhausted and are drawn to ideologies that answer their questions for them in a clear, unambiguous way. We're in an ideological arms race, becoming more polarized and less rational merely as a survival mechanism.

VLM 10y ago
The hidden lesson of 1984 is there is no answer once identity politics are in play. "Four legs good, two legs bad." is already past the point of no return and there is no "a society" as you quote but two battling for supremacy. Historically we have little evidence of solutions other than civil wars. Asking how to roll back identity politics without a physical war is like debating strategies to avoid nuclear war after the missiles have launched but before the mushroom clouds form. Its a little too late for that and there really isn't any point in wasting limited time in trying to roll back or blamestorming in circular firing squads.
- SolaceQuantum 10y ago
  Could you clarify what you mean by identity politics? I'm mostly used to see them in that gay people, trans people exist are considered identity politics. It's confusing that they are considered a politics that demands for more binary. Wouldn't the acceptance of sexual and gender diversity actually be less Binary than the total rejection of any sexuality and gender identity besides cis and hetereo?
tremon 10y ago
Where do you draw the line against line-drawing without being hypocritical? You challenge their support. Continue to push them to draw more lines, until they've drawn so many lines that they're all alone inside their fence. Try to convince them that no one matches up to their worldview, not even their family and not even themselves.