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> Come on. Do you really think I come into the office on weekends just for fun? There is a difference between working hard and working smart. Working smart mea

> Come on. Do you really think I come into the office on weekends just for fun? There is a difference between working hard and working smart. Working smart means to fix today's problems that all your users are complaining. People want to use Firefox everyday but cannot. The solution to today's Firefox performance problems is not Servo or Rust. It's basically engineers putting in time to fix it in the _current_ code base. To be more constructive: Why don't you do a "Ask HN" about what stops them from using Firefox every day and you will have the answer. In fact, just reply to this comment and I will do this for you (It just seemed for me to do this as an "outsider"). On a personal anecode: I don't use firefox everyday for "fun" either despite having so many performance issues. I believe in Mozilla's original vision and it's sadly now like a "religion" for me - I use it despite the pain it causes me.

tmccrmck 10y ago
Oh boy. This type of rhetoric is so annoying to people who work at big companies. Do you know what pcwalton works on?
- owlninja 10y ago
  He sort of implied that he works on the browser by what he quoted, and your post just sounds like you want to talk about yourself.
  - tmccrmck 10y ago
    He "sort of" implied that he works on Servo which is not Firefox. I brought up my own personal experience because I've also had people conflate where you work with what you do.
    - steveklabnik 10y ago
      > Servo which is not Firefox. Given that Servo is now vendored inside of Firefox's tree, and Project Quantum more generally, this is not exactly an either-or these days.
tracker1 10y ago
Most of the hard problems are extra hard because of the existing codebase, and the nature of it. Servo/Rust are definitely the way to go to fix those long term issues in stability and performance. Sometimes you DO have to step back, and rewrite, but at least you have a better idea what you need based on the prior version, even in a separate language.
- simplehuman 10y ago
  I cannot think of any problem being solved with a total rewrite in a completely new framework and in a completely new language. That too when the issue is graphical performance and UX design. Oh well.. Best I can luck and thanks for the browser.
pcwalton 10y ago
> The solution to today's Firefox performance problems is not Servo or Rust. It's basically engineers putting in time to fix it in the _current_ code base. If you're so convinced that the correct answer is to hack more on Gecko (as if hundreds of engineers haven't been doing exactly that for a decade), then it should be easy for you to explain to me, in detail, technically, why Gecko's architecture is suitable to achieve best in class performance in the long term. > To be more constructive: Why don't you do a "Ask HN" about what stops them from using Firefox every day and you will have the answer. Don't deflect. I want you to defend the choice of continuing to hack on Gecko's C++ codebase instead of using Rust. Preferably describe specific subsystems that you think Gecko is doing better than Servo is, and what the problems you think Servo's architecture has. This should be very easy for you to do, as you seem to think it's so obviously correct that the only conclusion is that none of us even care about making the browser better.
- slededit 10y ago
  I'm not the original poster but I think this is dismissive of a very real problem with FireFox. As a user I've seen perceived performance regress significantly over the last few years. From the outside Servo looks like a distraction - and the results tend to confirm it. It may well be that Gecko just is that terrible and the only way to fix it is with Servo. If that's the case you guys really need to hurry up because you're loosing significant mindshare. Your organization's predecessor has also made this mistake before very publicly in the past with the Netscape rewrite.
  - pcwalton 10y ago
    > From the outside Servo looks like a distraction - and the results tend to confirm it. Then show me those specific results. I'll pose it to you, too. If it's so obvious, tell me what the problems with Gecko are, specifically, and how Servo cannot solve them. > If that's the case you guys really need to hurry up because you're loosing significant mindshare. This is the first time I've been called lazy by a random HN poster. I guess there's a first time for everything. > Your organization's predecessor has also made this mistake before very publicly in the past with the Netscape rewrite. Firefox was possible because of Gecko in the first place! Do you want to be using code descended from Netscape 4, which had no dynamic restyling at all?

tmccrmck 10y ago

Oh boy. This type of rhetoric is so annoying to people who work at big companies. Do you know what pcwalton works on?

owlninja 10y ago
He sort of implied that he works on the browser by what he quoted, and your post just sounds like you want to talk about yourself.
- tmccrmck 10y ago
  He "sort of" implied that he works on Servo which is not Firefox. I brought up my own personal experience because I've also had people conflate where you work with what you do.
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    > Servo which is not Firefox. Given that Servo is now vendored inside of Firefox's tree, and Project Quantum more generally, this is not exactly an either-or these days.

tracker1 10y ago

Most of the hard problems are extra hard because of the existing codebase, and the nature of it. Servo/Rust are definitely the way to go to fix those long term issues in stability and performance. Sometimes you DO have to step back, and rewrite, but at least you have a better idea what you need based on the prior version, even in a separate language.

simplehuman 10y ago
I cannot think of any problem being solved with a total rewrite in a completely new framework and in a completely new language. That too when the issue is graphical performance and UX design. Oh well.. Best I can luck and thanks for the browser.

pcwalton 10y ago

> The solution to today's Firefox performance problems is not Servo or Rust. It's basically engineers putting in time to fix it in the _current_ code base. If you're so convinced that the correct answer is to hack more on Gecko (as if hundreds of engineers haven't been doing exactly that for a decade), then it should be easy for you to explain to me, in detail, technically, why Gecko's architecture is suitable to achieve best in class performance in the long term. > To be more constructive: Why don't you do a "Ask HN" about what stops them from using Firefox every day and you will have the answer. Don't deflect. I want you to defend the choice of continuing to hack on Gecko's C++ codebase instead of using Rust. Preferably describe specific subsystems that you think Gecko is doing better than Servo is, and what the problems you think Servo's architecture has. This should be very easy for you to do, as you seem to think it's so obviously correct that the only conclusion is that none of us even care about making the browser better.

slededit 10y ago
I'm not the original poster but I think this is dismissive of a very real problem with FireFox. As a user I've seen perceived performance regress significantly over the last few years. From the outside Servo looks like a distraction - and the results tend to confirm it. It may well be that Gecko just is that terrible and the only way to fix it is with Servo. If that's the case you guys really need to hurry up because you're loosing significant mindshare. Your organization's predecessor has also made this mistake before very publicly in the past with the Netscape rewrite.
- pcwalton 10y ago
  > From the outside Servo looks like a distraction - and the results tend to confirm it. Then show me those specific results. I'll pose it to you, too. If it's so obvious, tell me what the problems with Gecko are, specifically, and how Servo cannot solve them. > If that's the case you guys really need to hurry up because you're loosing significant mindshare. This is the first time I've been called lazy by a random HN poster. I guess there's a first time for everything. > Your organization's predecessor has also made this mistake before very publicly in the past with the Netscape rewrite. Firefox was possible because of Gecko in the first place! Do you want to be using code descended from Netscape 4, which had no dynamic restyling at all?