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I think it bears repeating that there has been no hard evidence turned up in any of this. Even the single non-anonymous story doesn't have any corroborating evi

I think it bears repeating that there has been no hard evidence turned up in any of this. Even the single non-anonymous story doesn't have any corroborating evidence or records, and the charges of "investigation" and "harassment" have been only reported by the original reporter of the story. The fallout has been that somebody has been let go after non-substantiated rumors about his activities at a previous employer, and now people are being pressured to leave the company and end all association with the company. This is definitely an unjustified (based on the revealed evidence) reaction, and this is how witch hunts start. Now I have heard second hand that the work and engineering culture at Uber needs some help - in terms of hours worked and technical discipline. That sort of thing seems plausible. However, for anything that implies this level of harassment, there had better be more hard evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

goseeastarwar 10y ago
We need to stop doing this in every thread. These women are taking huge risks by speaking publicly and asking for proof is insulting to say the least.
- redthrowaway 10y ago
  This is an insane reaction. There is literally no other charge for which "I would like to see supporting evidence of this claim" is somehow problematic.
  - goseeastarwar 10y ago
    It's really not when you realize these aren't extraordinary claims. Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence.
    - redthrowaway 10y ago
      >Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence. Insisting on evidence is verboten. On HN. I'm quickly growing tired of this place.
      - goseeastarwar 10y ago
        Much of this thread is people arguing this is embellished, untrue, the cost of doing business, or a conspiracy. Not to fear, I think your side of nonsense is safely represented. * the evidence pedant corrected my spelling
        jimmywanger 10y ago
        > imbellished *embellished. > untrue We don't know whether the claims are true one way or another. What we do know for certain is that the claim has affected many people's careers and the financial success of a large company. If these claims are proven true, punish those responsible. If they're not true, punish those who harmed the lives and reputation of others.
    - flukus 10y ago
      > Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence Yes, because it would be nice to know if it really was a systemic issue before wasting time and energy fixing it. "It's totally an issue, trust me" isn't worth acting on.
      - goseeastarwar 10y ago
        How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? Nearly every woman in the industry has a story to tell, most say nothing. You'd know that if you'd bother to speak to any.
        flukus 10y ago
        > How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? Zero, I'm not taking anecdotal evidence.
        jimmywanger 10y ago
        > How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? How many accounts of the effectiveness of homeopathy do you need to believe that it works, out of curiosity?
- synicalx 10y ago
  Really? How is it insulting? So if I was a woman, you'd be ok with me going to the police and saying that you stole my wallet - even though I had zero proof of that ever happening?
  - goseeastarwar 10y ago
    A stolen wallet is just like someone putting their career on the line because of a feckless HR department. Wait, no it isn't.
    - synicalx 10y ago
      Not even what I was talking about, but sure go right ahead and keep typing whatever you want. If you get around to it, feel free to answer my actual question at any time you like.
      - goseeastarwar 10y ago
        It's very simple when you realize they have everything to lose and little to gain by speaking up. I don't know how this isn't abundantly clear to anyone littering this thread with nonsense about evidence.
- flukus 10y ago
  How is it a huge risk? No one will remember any of their names in a week and if their allies in this thread are too be believed they can walk into a job elsewhere.
- 4WIW 10y ago
  I agree with you about the bravery of women who came out with their stories and thank them for stirring this public discussion. However in the context of TFA, the campaign to make Uber employees quit is an _action_, and it still based on accusations (however credible they may sound). This sounds a whole lot like a witch hunt. In enlightened modern-day Silicon Valley, that is.
kristianc 10y ago
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof That phrase was originally invoked to describe telekinesis. I'm not sure 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' falls into that category.
- corndoge 10y ago
  "Astronomical" was originally invoked to describe space but that doesn't stop your comment from being astronomically worthless
- flukus 10y ago
  You're right, this is an ordinary claim that only requires ordinary evidence, something still lacking.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  Comparing the claims that have been made to be equivalent to 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' is like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic did not go as planned, or Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player. Talking about one particular conversation is one thing, alleging a pattern of sexual abuse and systemic harassment that completely crosses all lines for everybody is something entirely else.
  - kristianc 10y ago
    > Talking about one particular conversation is one thing, alleging a pattern of sexual abuse and systemic harassment that completely crosses all lines for everybody is something entirely else. Like the one alleged to have existed at GitHub? Maybe such a pattern in SV is not so 'extraordinary' after all.
    - tomp 10y ago

goseeastarwar 10y ago

We need to stop doing this in every thread. These women are taking huge risks by speaking publicly and asking for proof is insulting to say the least.

redthrowaway 10y ago
This is an insane reaction. There is literally no other charge for which "I would like to see supporting evidence of this claim" is somehow problematic.
- goseeastarwar 10y ago
  It's really not when you realize these aren't extraordinary claims. Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence.
  - redthrowaway 10y ago
    >Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence. Insisting on evidence is verboten. On HN. I'm quickly growing tired of this place.
    - goseeastarwar 10y ago
      Much of this thread is people arguing this is embellished, untrue, the cost of doing business, or a conspiracy. Not to fear, I think your side of nonsense is safely represented. * the evidence pedant corrected my spelling
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        > imbellished *embellished. > untrue We don't know whether the claims are true one way or another. What we do know for certain is that the claim has affected many people's careers and the financial success of a large company. If these claims are proven true, punish those responsible. If they're not true, punish those who harmed the lives and reputation of others.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > Those that wish to distract from the industry's systemic issues insist on evidence Yes, because it would be nice to know if it really was a systemic issue before wasting time and energy fixing it. "It's totally an issue, trust me" isn't worth acting on.
    - goseeastarwar 10y ago
      How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? Nearly every woman in the industry has a story to tell, most say nothing. You'd know that if you'd bother to speak to any.
      - flukus 10y ago
        > How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? Zero, I'm not taking anecdotal evidence.
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        > How many accounts of harassment do you need to believe there's a problem, out of curiosity? How many accounts of the effectiveness of homeopathy do you need to believe that it works, out of curiosity?
synicalx 10y ago
Really? How is it insulting? So if I was a woman, you'd be ok with me going to the police and saying that you stole my wallet - even though I had zero proof of that ever happening?
- goseeastarwar 10y ago
  A stolen wallet is just like someone putting their career on the line because of a feckless HR department. Wait, no it isn't.
  - synicalx 10y ago
    Not even what I was talking about, but sure go right ahead and keep typing whatever you want. If you get around to it, feel free to answer my actual question at any time you like.
    - goseeastarwar 10y ago
      It's very simple when you realize they have everything to lose and little to gain by speaking up. I don't know how this isn't abundantly clear to anyone littering this thread with nonsense about evidence.
flukus 10y ago
How is it a huge risk? No one will remember any of their names in a week and if their allies in this thread are too be believed they can walk into a job elsewhere.
4WIW 10y ago
I agree with you about the bravery of women who came out with their stories and thank them for stirring this public discussion. However in the context of TFA, the campaign to make Uber employees quit is an _action_, and it still based on accusations (however credible they may sound). This sounds a whole lot like a witch hunt. In enlightened modern-day Silicon Valley, that is.

kristianc 10y ago

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof That phrase was originally invoked to describe telekinesis. I'm not sure 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' falls into that category.

corndoge 10y ago
"Astronomical" was originally invoked to describe space but that doesn't stop your comment from being astronomically worthless
flukus 10y ago
You're right, this is an ordinary claim that only requires ordinary evidence, something still lacking.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jimmywanger 10y ago
Comparing the claims that have been made to be equivalent to 'Silicon Valley company has problem with female employees' is like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic did not go as planned, or Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player. Talking about one particular conversation is one thing, alleging a pattern of sexual abuse and systemic harassment that completely crosses all lines for everybody is something entirely else.
- kristianc 10y ago
  > Talking about one particular conversation is one thing, alleging a pattern of sexual abuse and systemic harassment that completely crosses all lines for everybody is something entirely else. Like the one alleged to have existed at GitHub? Maybe such a pattern in SV is not so 'extraordinary' after all.
  - tomp 10y ago