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Good. State universities are perversely incentivized to prefer higher paying students from out-of-state and international. University of Washington, the state'

Good. State universities are perversely incentivized to prefer higher paying students from out-of-state and international. University of Washington, the state's top school, is now 1/3 non-state residents. It's a serious problem.

tptacek 10y ago
It's not perverse if out-of-state students fund reduced tuition for in-state students. But apparently that wasn't happening in the UC system.
- yaacov 10y ago
  I'm an undergraduate at a UC school right now, and I can tell you that that is happening in the UC system. State funding per student has collapsed [1] and campuses are scrambling to cover the costs. One way to do that is by increasing tuition, and another is by admitting out-of-state students who pay massive premiums to attend the university. Out of state students pay about $50k/yr to attend a UC. In-state students pay about $12K, and the UC spends a bit over $30k per student. That means that each out-of-state student provides enough revenue to pay for an additional in-state student! Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. [1] http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1119 http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1119
  - reneherse 10y ago
    >Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. Or, how about the UC system reduces spending per student?
    - yaacov 10y ago
      They already spend less than most comparably-ranked universities. If you take a look at the link I posted on the top-level comment, you'll see that expenses per student have been increasing pretty slowly. Of course, waste should still be cut if it exists. Are there any specific programs that you think should have their funding reduced?
      - reneherse 10y ago
        No expert, just a former student with a sense of fairness and disgust for waste. But I would hope to see: -Cuts in administration size and salaries. -Cuts in facility expenditures; figure out a way to do more with less. -An increase in the number of full time faculty. -An increase in faculty and graduate instructor compensation.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - Domenic_S 10y ago
    How many more undergraduates would there be revenue for if UC stopped doing things like paying $1MM in renovation costs for the Chancellor's house? http://www.dailycal.org/2016/06/29/campus-spends-1-million-chancellors-university-house/ http://www.dailycal.org/2016/06/29/campus-spends-1-million-c...
    - eric_the_read 10y ago
      Given the above numbers, a little less than 33 ($1MM / (30k/student)). Not that you shouldn't care about such things, but that particular instance doesn't appear to materially affect the undergraduate population.
      - tmccrmck 10y ago
        Because s/he wants to build up a straw man. I was in the Chancellor's house before Dirks moved in and it was in dire need of repair. That plan was also made when Birgeneau was still Chancellor. The fence... not sure if that was a judicious use of UC money.
        r00fus 10y ago
        I think it's mainly about the $700k fence.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 10y ago
        Students pay for 4+ years and out of state tuition is 50K so 5 students.
  - xenihn 10y ago
    They should be charging more than $50k a year.
  - Gargoyle 10y ago
    Fewer out of state students at a higher tuition could yield the same funding. Do we know what the curve looks like?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I don't know why the "lol" is there, as the enrollment cap is a condition of additional state funding.
    - Eridrus 10y ago
      The additional 19m in funding doesn't get near the 56m (above cost of tuition) in funding the 3 universities above the 20% cut off recieve from out of state students. [0] So we're talking a 40m/yr deficit from just 3 schools. If they were serious about funding these schools they would have done these numbers and given them a commensurate funding, but they didn't. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UC-regents-expect-to-limit-enrollment-of-10981514.php http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UC-regents-expect-to...
- forrestthewoods 10y ago
  It's perverse because even if out-of-state subsidizes in-state it is better for the school to push it even further. The school and in-state population have a conflict of interests. State funding can prevent the ratio from getting too far out of whack. Which is exactly what UC is doing. The real problem is probably exploding tuition rates. But that's another conversation entirely...
  - JumpCrisscross 10y ago
    > The school and in-state population have a conflict of interests Is it that clear that they do? For out-of-state students who leave after graduating, in-state students gained a broader network contact. For those who settle in California, the economy and tax base just grew.
    - forrestthewoods 10y ago
      Uhhh yes? The schools have only so many spots. In-state students who don't get an acceptance letter receive no benefit when some rich kid from another state or country gets in. The in-state student ends up going to a lesser school and they're worse off for it. The rich kid gets a top tier education and quite likely returns home after graduating. So yeah. There's absolutely a conflict of interests. I'm surprised this is an unpopular opinion on HN. I expected lots of upvotes. It's a well known and widely discussed issue up here in Seattle.
      - JumpCrisscross 10y ago
        I think it's long- versus short-term horizons. If your state fills with less-qualified in-staters at the expense of qualified out-of-staters, that feels good now but is uncompetitive in the long run. (Consider what would happen if California's start-up founders hadn't been drawn in by its universities.) If, on the other hand, you neglect the local population then that, too, is bad. Either way, it's a question of balance.
        forrestthewoods 10y ago
Paul-ish 10y ago
Lets send Washington students to UC system and California students to UW. This is how the public school system was designed to serve their local communities /s

tptacek 10y ago

It's not perverse if out-of-state students fund reduced tuition for in-state students. But apparently that wasn't happening in the UC system.

yaacov 10y ago
I'm an undergraduate at a UC school right now, and I can tell you that that is happening in the UC system. State funding per student has collapsed [1] and campuses are scrambling to cover the costs. One way to do that is by increasing tuition, and another is by admitting out-of-state students who pay massive premiums to attend the university. Out of state students pay about $50k/yr to attend a UC. In-state students pay about $12K, and the UC spends a bit over $30k per student. That means that each out-of-state student provides enough revenue to pay for an additional in-state student! Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. [1] http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1119 http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1119
- reneherse 10y ago
  >Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. Or, how about the UC system reduces spending per student?
  - yaacov 10y ago
    They already spend less than most comparably-ranked universities. If you take a look at the link I posted on the top-level comment, you'll see that expenses per student have been increasing pretty slowly. Of course, waste should still be cut if it exists. Are there any specific programs that you think should have their funding reduced?
    - reneherse 10y ago
      No expert, just a former student with a sense of fairness and disgust for waste. But I would hope to see: -Cuts in administration size and salaries. -Cuts in facility expenditures; figure out a way to do more with less. -An increase in the number of full time faculty. -An increase in faculty and graduate instructor compensation.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- Domenic_S 10y ago
  How many more undergraduates would there be revenue for if UC stopped doing things like paying $1MM in renovation costs for the Chancellor's house? http://www.dailycal.org/2016/06/29/campus-spends-1-million-chancellors-university-house/ http://www.dailycal.org/2016/06/29/campus-spends-1-million-c...
  - eric_the_read 10y ago
    Given the above numbers, a little less than 33 ($1MM / (30k/student)). Not that you shouldn't care about such things, but that particular instance doesn't appear to materially affect the undergraduate population.
    - tmccrmck 10y ago
      Because s/he wants to build up a straw man. I was in the Chancellor's house before Dirks moved in and it was in dire need of repair. That plan was also made when Birgeneau was still Chancellor. The fence... not sure if that was a judicious use of UC money.
      - r00fus 10y ago
        I think it's mainly about the $700k fence.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 10y ago
      Students pay for 4+ years and out of state tuition is 50K so 5 students.
- xenihn 10y ago
  They should be charging more than $50k a year.
- Gargoyle 10y ago
  Fewer out of state students at a higher tuition could yield the same funding. Do we know what the curve looks like?
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I don't know why the "lol" is there, as the enrollment cap is a condition of additional state funding.
  - Eridrus 10y ago
    The additional 19m in funding doesn't get near the 56m (above cost of tuition) in funding the 3 universities above the 20% cut off recieve from out of state students. [0] So we're talking a 40m/yr deficit from just 3 schools. If they were serious about funding these schools they would have done these numbers and given them a commensurate funding, but they didn't. [0] http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UC-regents-expect-to-limit-enrollment-of-10981514.php http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/UC-regents-expect-to...
forrestthewoods 10y ago
It's perverse because even if out-of-state subsidizes in-state it is better for the school to push it even further. The school and in-state population have a conflict of interests. State funding can prevent the ratio from getting too far out of whack. Which is exactly what UC is doing. The real problem is probably exploding tuition rates. But that's another conversation entirely...
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > The school and in-state population have a conflict of interests Is it that clear that they do? For out-of-state students who leave after graduating, in-state students gained a broader network contact. For those who settle in California, the economy and tax base just grew.
  - forrestthewoods 10y ago
    Uhhh yes? The schools have only so many spots. In-state students who don't get an acceptance letter receive no benefit when some rich kid from another state or country gets in. The in-state student ends up going to a lesser school and they're worse off for it. The rich kid gets a top tier education and quite likely returns home after graduating. So yeah. There's absolutely a conflict of interests. I'm surprised this is an unpopular opinion on HN. I expected lots of upvotes. It's a well known and widely discussed issue up here in Seattle.
    - JumpCrisscross 10y ago
      I think it's long- versus short-term horizons. If your state fills with less-qualified in-staters at the expense of qualified out-of-staters, that feels good now but is uncompetitive in the long run. (Consider what would happen if California's start-up founders hadn't been drawn in by its universities.) If, on the other hand, you neglect the local population then that, too, is bad. Either way, it's a question of balance.
      - forrestthewoods 10y ago

Paul-ish 10y ago

Lets send Washington students to UC system and California students to UW. This is how the public school system was designed to serve their local communities /s