4 ms·

In The Netherlands, supervised injection sites exist for ~30 years now. Also, The Netherlands provide methadone. It seems to have worked / be working. Our hero

In The Netherlands, supervised injection sites exist for ~30 years now. Also, The Netherlands provide methadone. It seems to have worked / be working. Our heroine epidemic is far behind us, the addicts are dying out.

cryptarch 10y ago
The Netherlands also have a few legal highs: weed, kratom and psilocybin.
- dep_b 10y ago
  They're not legal in The Netherlands. Magic mushrooms have been banned a while ago (but at the same truffles still are not, clueless), weed was never legal. Also all production is illegal. Coffeeshops don't pay taxes. They're just.....there? We used to think it was the crazy US forcing the Dutch to have such a bipolar approach to drugs but pot is more legal in Colorado now than in Holland and still the Dutch laws are a mess.
  - headcanon 10y ago
    The legal status IMO is less important in this case than how the state treats it. In the Netherlands (correct me if I'm wrong), drugs are seen as a public health concern, and in the US its seen as a criminal problem. When its criminalized and demonized like it is here, then politicans must "crack down" on it to appear "tough on crime", and more progressive mitigation solutions (like supervised injection and treatment centers) aren't even entertained in our lust to imprison.
  - cryptarch 10y ago
    Magic truffles have the same effects as magic mushrooms and are legal. Magic mushroom products are still sold at some smartshops, but not legal. Weed is not legal, but you can buy it in dispensaries ("koffieshops") and carry up to 5 grams without being fined or arrested. You can smoke publicly as long as you're not bothering anyone (like with alcohol). I think that's pretty sweet. You can have up to 5 plants at your home, but if the police asks you to destroy them you have to, or you can get fined, so again: as long as you're not bothering anyone or dealing you're fine. There are is also a proposed law to decriminalize the mass-production of weed (while introducing QC regulations, like those for food) and the delivery to the dispensaries. With that full legalization can't be far off. The idea that legalization is just the right thing to do is pretty mainstream here, and a progressive political party, GroenLinks, supports legalization and is currently 3rd in the polls. Edit: caps
    - dep_b 10y ago
      > You can have up to 5 plants at your home I think that's an urban myth actually. I know people that got kicked out of their house for having just three plants just growing outdoor so no tampering with electricity or fire risk. They used to be more lenient but people tended to burn their house down with illegal indoor plantations. It's weird how in a liberal country like The Netherlands where everybody wants full legalization we somehow ended up with a government that got a lot stricter instead.
      - cryptarch 10y ago
        That sounds like a renters' agreement thing? Here's what the police says themselves on the matter: https://www.vraaghetdepolitie.nl/drank-en-drugs/drugs-en-straffen/hoeveel-wietplanten-mag-ik-hebben.html https://www.vraaghetdepolitie.nl/drank-en-drugs/drugs-en-str... So it's not legal but if you have at most 5 plants and let them be taken away you won't be prosecuted.
        dep_b 10y ago
        So you can't have any plants at all but if you have more than five you will always be persecuted. Perhaps the renter that got kicked out had violated some kind of agreement. It was social housing though, which is really common in The Netherlands, so I imagine a lot of people are facing the same problem.
        cryptarch 10y ago
        Yeah, but why would the police ever see your plants at all? Also keep in mind that the police in the Netherlands is not as trigger happy as American police by a long shot. You're not getting swatted for having a few plants because our police is not militarized at all, we have a separate branch of LE that does riots and SWAT-like tasks and they're mostly used for large drug operations and soccer riots. AFAIK as long as you're not using high-powered lighting (and not the modern LEDs or sunlight), tapping the neighbors' electricity and therewith creating a fire hazard you're fine. Plantations are usually found either by the electricity company or because a helicopter with IR vision (or regylar vision on a snowy day) happens to find a house with an unusually hot roof.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  i have a friend (in the US) who used kratom to kick heroin. he still has an addiction to service but it's legal, relatively cheap and not debilitating. i know he's not alone in this use of it, though it's also a useful anxiolytic ime, and i had no issues with addiction or withdrawal after experimenting with it a little. i was very hopeful about the obama dea backing off the kratom ban last autumn after the public backlash but i'm worried about steps the current administration may take.
cmdkeen 10y ago
Even in the US heroin use was massively down, because it had moved on from the edgy rock and roll era to realising how dangerous it was. The list of dead celebrities rather took the edge off heroin chic. The US resurgence is tied to massive over-prescription of opiates who abusers turn to heroin if their supply is disrupted / their tolerance increases. The demographics of users is very different. There's an entire chapter in Narconomics covered to this. Supervised injections etc works in Denmark because its healthcare sector is set up to support it - the US healthcare sector is still actively poisoning the populace.
- taurath 10y ago
  Given the amount of pharmacetical money sloshing around every single congresspeople's coffers there will not be any meaningful reform or restrictions for a long while. The easiest path is to just go full-bore law and order against drug users.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    That's then 'easiest' path on what planet? It's the absolute hardest path, and utterly defeatist.
    - jasonmp85 10y ago
      I think people are taking away the wrong message here. It's the "easiest" as in "on the lowest shelf". It's easy just as it's easy to grab undocumented immigrant parents in pickup lanes at schools. There's doing what's hard (either politically, or by effort) but "best", and there's being lazy and incompetent and just doing what comes easiest. Our current administration does the latter.
      - edraferi 10y ago
        Perhaps "lazy," "childish" or "naive" are more accurate words. Current policies are designed around bluster / posturing rather than effectiveness.
    - 10y ago

cryptarch 10y ago

The Netherlands also have a few legal highs: weed, kratom and psilocybin.

dep_b 10y ago
They're not legal in The Netherlands. Magic mushrooms have been banned a while ago (but at the same truffles still are not, clueless), weed was never legal. Also all production is illegal. Coffeeshops don't pay taxes. They're just.....there? We used to think it was the crazy US forcing the Dutch to have such a bipolar approach to drugs but pot is more legal in Colorado now than in Holland and still the Dutch laws are a mess.
- headcanon 10y ago
  The legal status IMO is less important in this case than how the state treats it. In the Netherlands (correct me if I'm wrong), drugs are seen as a public health concern, and in the US its seen as a criminal problem. When its criminalized and demonized like it is here, then politicans must "crack down" on it to appear "tough on crime", and more progressive mitigation solutions (like supervised injection and treatment centers) aren't even entertained in our lust to imprison.
- cryptarch 10y ago
  Magic truffles have the same effects as magic mushrooms and are legal. Magic mushroom products are still sold at some smartshops, but not legal. Weed is not legal, but you can buy it in dispensaries ("koffieshops") and carry up to 5 grams without being fined or arrested. You can smoke publicly as long as you're not bothering anyone (like with alcohol). I think that's pretty sweet. You can have up to 5 plants at your home, but if the police asks you to destroy them you have to, or you can get fined, so again: as long as you're not bothering anyone or dealing you're fine. There are is also a proposed law to decriminalize the mass-production of weed (while introducing QC regulations, like those for food) and the delivery to the dispensaries. With that full legalization can't be far off. The idea that legalization is just the right thing to do is pretty mainstream here, and a progressive political party, GroenLinks, supports legalization and is currently 3rd in the polls. Edit: caps
  - dep_b 10y ago
    > You can have up to 5 plants at your home I think that's an urban myth actually. I know people that got kicked out of their house for having just three plants just growing outdoor so no tampering with electricity or fire risk. They used to be more lenient but people tended to burn their house down with illegal indoor plantations. It's weird how in a liberal country like The Netherlands where everybody wants full legalization we somehow ended up with a government that got a lot stricter instead.
    - cryptarch 10y ago
      That sounds like a renters' agreement thing? Here's what the police says themselves on the matter: https://www.vraaghetdepolitie.nl/drank-en-drugs/drugs-en-straffen/hoeveel-wietplanten-mag-ik-hebben.html https://www.vraaghetdepolitie.nl/drank-en-drugs/drugs-en-str... So it's not legal but if you have at most 5 plants and let them be taken away you won't be prosecuted.
      - dep_b 10y ago
        So you can't have any plants at all but if you have more than five you will always be persecuted. Perhaps the renter that got kicked out had violated some kind of agreement. It was social housing though, which is really common in The Netherlands, so I imagine a lot of people are facing the same problem.
        cryptarch 10y ago
        Yeah, but why would the police ever see your plants at all? Also keep in mind that the police in the Netherlands is not as trigger happy as American police by a long shot. You're not getting swatted for having a few plants because our police is not militarized at all, we have a separate branch of LE that does riots and SWAT-like tasks and they're mostly used for large drug operations and soccer riots. AFAIK as long as you're not using high-powered lighting (and not the modern LEDs or sunlight), tapping the neighbors' electricity and therewith creating a fire hazard you're fine. Plantations are usually found either by the electricity company or because a helicopter with IR vision (or regylar vision on a snowy day) happens to find a house with an unusually hot roof.
nyolfen 10y ago
i have a friend (in the US) who used kratom to kick heroin. he still has an addiction to service but it's legal, relatively cheap and not debilitating. i know he's not alone in this use of it, though it's also a useful anxiolytic ime, and i had no issues with addiction or withdrawal after experimenting with it a little. i was very hopeful about the obama dea backing off the kratom ban last autumn after the public backlash but i'm worried about steps the current administration may take.

cmdkeen 10y ago

Even in the US heroin use was massively down, because it had moved on from the edgy rock and roll era to realising how dangerous it was. The list of dead celebrities rather took the edge off heroin chic. The US resurgence is tied to massive over-prescription of opiates who abusers turn to heroin if their supply is disrupted / their tolerance increases. The demographics of users is very different. There's an entire chapter in Narconomics covered to this. Supervised injections etc works in Denmark because its healthcare sector is set up to support it - the US healthcare sector is still actively poisoning the populace.

taurath 10y ago
Given the amount of pharmacetical money sloshing around every single congresspeople's coffers there will not be any meaningful reform or restrictions for a long while. The easiest path is to just go full-bore law and order against drug users.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  That's then 'easiest' path on what planet? It's the absolute hardest path, and utterly defeatist.
  - jasonmp85 10y ago
    I think people are taking away the wrong message here. It's the "easiest" as in "on the lowest shelf". It's easy just as it's easy to grab undocumented immigrant parents in pickup lanes at schools. There's doing what's hard (either politically, or by effort) but "best", and there's being lazy and incompetent and just doing what comes easiest. Our current administration does the latter.
    - edraferi 10y ago
      Perhaps "lazy," "childish" or "naive" are more accurate words. Current policies are designed around bluster / posturing rather than effectiveness.
  - 10y ago