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So what is the answer here? Like another poster said, there's a demand problem. How do we as a society address this? I've seen a lot of mumbles about dealing wi

by pnathan 10y ago

So what is the answer here? Like another poster said, there's a demand problem. How do we as a society address this? I've seen a lot of mumbles about dealing with supply problems, dealing with overdose problems, but it'd be good to head the problems off at the pass before they descend into major trouble. I should also note, this is a burgeoning problem in the Puget Sound/Seattle region. It's not just rural people dying. Can someone knowledgeable about drug policy / sociology provide some insight in this thread?

DougN7 10y ago
Preventing that first time is probably the secret. It's got to be so much harder to resist once you know what you're missing. And it's not like you're rational about it and considering long term consequences when you're confronted with a second opportunity. Unfortunately, we live in a society where it's all good, live free, don't judge, do what feels good, etc. That leads to things that feel extremely good... I'm grateful to parents, teachers and some scary videos in high school health class that taught me to stay away.
- tbrownaw 10y ago
  I remember reading somewhere about how a decent chunk of drug users just plain grow out of it as they grow into life roles that it doesn't quite work for. Nothing to do with theoretical long term consequences, just "this is more trouble than it's worth".
  - pnathan 10y ago
    I'd concur.... anecdotes from reading Reddit suggest that's true for a number of pot or hallucinogen users. They move on to more fulfilling roles in life.
    - wutbrodo 10y ago
      Well sure, for the safest, least-addictive drugs around. For more dangerous drugs like alcohol or the ones discussed in this thread, "growing out of" an abuse habit is orders of magnitude more difficult.
- knz 10y ago
  While there may be some truth to this, it's also reflective of our society in general - more absent parents/latch key kids, issues with access to mental health care/health care in general, a lack of jobs/hope in deprived areas, a generation of soldiers coming back from the Global War on Terror (how many homeless people are veterans?), and the many side effects of the War on Drugs - the flawed criminal justice system, deeply entrenched gangs in some areas, and the foreign policy failings in Central/South America. There is no single cause or solution.
- senorjazz 10y ago
  Not at all. The first time you use heroin it is nothing special. If it is strong, you will vomit, a lot. The high isn't even that great. If you are in pain when you take it, then sure. If you are dope sick from other opiates, then sure. Addition to opiates doesn't happen from that first hit, it takes effort and dedication. You need to be using multiple times, daily for over a week before you'll get sick and even then it won't be so bad.
senorjazz 10y ago
The problem is you have a large addicted population. Helping them get off opiates is expensive and time consuming (although orders of magnitude less than the war on drugs). Also, depending on the level of addiction that may just be no hope for some. As another commenter said, in Holland they have had legal heroin dispensaries for 30 years, with medical staff and clean rooms for injecting. The addicts can be monitored, I believe they have general health and mental health workers available as well. The addicts get live a "normal" as possible, knowing when and where they can get their fix. The whole day is not spent worrying where the money will come from Due to this, the average age of addict has steadily rose for years and years and, as the other commenter also stated, they die off
- pnathan 10y ago
  I'm kind of interested in the funnel prior to the addiction. How to make heroin etc uninteresting...
  - goatsi 10y ago
    Heroin clinics can be very helpful for that. By providing the heroin and requiring that it be used on site they take it out of the community. Nobody sees their friends using and gets offered a bit to try. Starting drug use is often a very social phenomenon, generally people are introduced to them by friends. From a study on the Swiss clinics [0] >*New Use Rates: Slightly lower than expected. 1) As reported in the Lancet June 3, 2006, the medicalisation of using heroin has tarnished the image of heroin and made it unattractive to young people. 2) Most new users are introduced to heroin by members of their social group and 50% of users also deal to support their habit. Therefore, with so many users/sellers in treatment, non-users have fewer opportunities to be exposed to heroin, especially in the rural areas. This is only helpful for people starting from heroin though, the problem of people getting addicted to opioids from taking pharmaceutical drugs [1] is an entirely different matter to address. [0] http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-heroin-assisted-treatment-1994-2009-summary/ http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-h... [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/chasing-heroin/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/chasing-heroin/
programmarchy 10y ago
Have you heard of the Rat Park study? It attributed addiction to living conditions (e.g. rats in "Rat Park" had less addicts than rats in laboratory cages) rather than addictive properties of the drug. For humans, I think it goes beyond physical living conditions, and into the mental realm. A perhaps related topic is Attachment Theory [2] which models interpersonal relationships imprinted on children by primary caregivers. With the two income trap shunting child rearing to daycares and schools, the theory would predict less secure attachments in children, leading to various maladies including identity crises and drug abuse. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory
- pnathan 10y ago
  I'm familiar with both. Generally I don't think either of the conclusions/theories they establish are supported by history and the breadth of human culture, even today. Attachment theory is particularly notorious for being misunderstood.

by pnathan 10y ago

DougN7 10y ago

Preventing that first time is probably the secret. It's got to be so much harder to resist once you know what you're missing. And it's not like you're rational about it and considering long term consequences when you're confronted with a second opportunity. Unfortunately, we live in a society where it's all good, live free, don't judge, do what feels good, etc. That leads to things that feel extremely good... I'm grateful to parents, teachers and some scary videos in high school health class that taught me to stay away.

tbrownaw 10y ago
I remember reading somewhere about how a decent chunk of drug users just plain grow out of it as they grow into life roles that it doesn't quite work for. Nothing to do with theoretical long term consequences, just "this is more trouble than it's worth".
- pnathan 10y ago
  I'd concur.... anecdotes from reading Reddit suggest that's true for a number of pot or hallucinogen users. They move on to more fulfilling roles in life.
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    Well sure, for the safest, least-addictive drugs around. For more dangerous drugs like alcohol or the ones discussed in this thread, "growing out of" an abuse habit is orders of magnitude more difficult.
knz 10y ago
While there may be some truth to this, it's also reflective of our society in general - more absent parents/latch key kids, issues with access to mental health care/health care in general, a lack of jobs/hope in deprived areas, a generation of soldiers coming back from the Global War on Terror (how many homeless people are veterans?), and the many side effects of the War on Drugs - the flawed criminal justice system, deeply entrenched gangs in some areas, and the foreign policy failings in Central/South America. There is no single cause or solution.
senorjazz 10y ago
Not at all. The first time you use heroin it is nothing special. If it is strong, you will vomit, a lot. The high isn't even that great. If you are in pain when you take it, then sure. If you are dope sick from other opiates, then sure. Addition to opiates doesn't happen from that first hit, it takes effort and dedication. You need to be using multiple times, daily for over a week before you'll get sick and even then it won't be so bad.

senorjazz 10y ago

The problem is you have a large addicted population. Helping them get off opiates is expensive and time consuming (although orders of magnitude less than the war on drugs). Also, depending on the level of addiction that may just be no hope for some. As another commenter said, in Holland they have had legal heroin dispensaries for 30 years, with medical staff and clean rooms for injecting. The addicts can be monitored, I believe they have general health and mental health workers available as well. The addicts get live a "normal" as possible, knowing when and where they can get their fix. The whole day is not spent worrying where the money will come from Due to this, the average age of addict has steadily rose for years and years and, as the other commenter also stated, they die off

pnathan 10y ago
I'm kind of interested in the funnel prior to the addiction. How to make heroin etc uninteresting...
- goatsi 10y ago
  Heroin clinics can be very helpful for that. By providing the heroin and requiring that it be used on site they take it out of the community. Nobody sees their friends using and gets offered a bit to try. Starting drug use is often a very social phenomenon, generally people are introduced to them by friends. From a study on the Swiss clinics [0] >*New Use Rates: Slightly lower than expected. 1) As reported in the Lancet June 3, 2006, the medicalisation of using heroin has tarnished the image of heroin and made it unattractive to young people. 2) Most new users are introduced to heroin by members of their social group and 50% of users also deal to support their habit. Therefore, with so many users/sellers in treatment, non-users have fewer opportunities to be exposed to heroin, especially in the rural areas. This is only helpful for people starting from heroin though, the problem of people getting addicted to opioids from taking pharmaceutical drugs [1] is an entirely different matter to address. [0] http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-heroin-assisted-treatment-1994-2009-summary/ http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/resources/swiss-h... [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/chasing-heroin/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/chasing-heroin/

programmarchy 10y ago

Have you heard of the Rat Park study? It attributed addiction to living conditions (e.g. rats in "Rat Park" had less addicts than rats in laboratory cages) rather than addictive properties of the drug. For humans, I think it goes beyond physical living conditions, and into the mental realm. A perhaps related topic is Attachment Theory [2] which models interpersonal relationships imprinted on children by primary caregivers. With the two income trap shunting child rearing to daycares and schools, the theory would predict less secure attachments in children, leading to various maladies including identity crises and drug abuse. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

pnathan 10y ago
I'm familiar with both. Generally I don't think either of the conclusions/theories they establish are supported by history and the breadth of human culture, even today. Attachment theory is particularly notorious for being misunderstood.