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Commentary: The H-1B Visa Problem as IEEE-USA Sees It

46 points by teklaperry 10y ago

PaulHoule 10y ago
It is taking stands like this that is the reason why I am a member of the IEEE Computer Society and not of the ACM.
reacharavindh 10y ago
Problem explained well. I would have loved to hear their take on how to solve it... > We oppose the expansion of H1-B program. > Greencard holders are not bad, they add to labor. - Good. Are they suggesting that high skilled labors should be given green cards instead of the visa? The problem of identifying who is a high skilled labor and who is not still remains.
untog 10y ago
Fixing this would be quite possible, if the government had the appetite to do so. Mandate that H1B workers must work in the office of their employer and you remove a large market for outsourcing companies to "rent" employees to others. It's absurd that these companies are allowed to abuse the program, and also take up as many visas as they do. I know both startups and foreign workers who have attempted to use H1B to work in the company but been denied because there aren't enough available.
- tn13 10y ago
  This makes H1B worker more restricted who is already screwed up pretty bad. Government can not track where people work. Can the person work from home ? Can the X Inc. rent out their 4 cubicles to Infosys? The obvious solution for H1B is to increase the cap from 85K to 200K or so while giving instant green-cards to all the pending applicants.
matt_s 10y ago
They didn't really call out what a fix would be, but maybe the legislation of the visas could require sponsorship by host company for green card and a timeframe for them to get that as well as an expedited route to attaining green card. This would make the H-1B visas exactly for specialized skills that might not be able to be sourced in the US or at least be for skills that are in high demand. It would fit the current administration's nationalistic agenda and it would reduce the half-pay visa's that the body shops bring into the country.
- cmurf 10y ago
  They're directly arguing in favor of putting skilled foreign workers on a path to citizenship, and not even mess around with H-1B's. If the argument is America lacks enough of certain skilled workers, recruit these workers into becoming Americans. This is in contrast to the Republican position which is to set a minimum wage for H-1B holders, which is rather ironic that they'll support a minimum wage there as a form of protectionism, but won't support a federal minimum wage increase. But that's typical Republican classism. Between that, and the current administration's blatantly anti-immigrant stance, I'm unconvinced we're going to see a good policy change in the near term, and instead it'll just be a rearranging of the deck chairs with a lot of red cape action to distract people from the issues.
vparikh 10y ago
The problem with the H-1B is that you are basically tied to the company that sponsored you. The one fundamental change that needs to happen is that the H-1B is issued for a period of X years to work in the country - not X years to work for Y company. This is would give H-1B holders the same level playing field to actually receive fair compensation as Americans have. If the companies were truly hiring H-1B because of a lack of talent, then they would be happy just to be able to have the required skill sets to be available.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
  How is this true? You are not effectively tied to your employer in an H-1B visa (unlike in L-1, where you are). If you work for say Google, and want to shift to Facebook, FB can just apply for the H-1B for you and while the actual paperwork takes time, you can move jobs in a couple of weeks. And if you clear the lottery once, you are not subjected to it again. So, modulo the $2-3K that FB will have to spend to apply for your H-1B, how else are you tied to Google?
  - geebee 10y ago
    The median salary for a registered nurse in San Francisco is $133,650 a year. How easy would it be for a software engineer on an H1B to become a registered nurse instead? As a citizen, I could do this, in response to my interests and market signals. Or I could install drywall, open a sandwich shop, sell real estate, or try to make a go of life as a writer or artists. Freedom. Nobody owes me success, but I am free to pursue happiness as I define it. Most immigrants, well over a million a year, who come to the US actually have similar freedom. Interestingly, Facebook, a multi multi billion dollar corporation, can't find enough workers who are free to choose their path in life, not from the 300+ million existing US citizens, not from the million+ who come here every year. It needs help from the government, to create a special program that allows Facebook's HR department to decide who is and isn't allowed to come here, in response to Facebook's hiring needs. Remarkable. Yes, I agree, people do overstate the case and often claim that H1Bs can't change employers, and yes, I agree, this is false. There are some very limited options for mobility. Provided you handle the paperwork correctly and limit yourself to sponsoring corporations, you can be a developer at this big corp, that big corp, or maybe even that other smaller corp that sponsored a visa. So here's my point - claiming that H1B holders can change jobs, without that context, is almost as inaccurate as claiming they can't. H1B holders absolutely are not free and full participants in our labor market, and there's no question that this is why some employers like this program so much, and prefer to use it over hiring those who are free (to negotiate and leave).
geebee 10y ago
I'm glad to see IEEE take a principled stand against expansion of the H1B program, and I'm particularly glad to see them take on the claim that support for the H1B program is equivalent to support for immigrants or immigration. Unfortunately, they get it slightly wrong when they claim that the UC was built by green card holders rather than guest workers. I think I know what they mean here - that the immigrants we celebrate who did amazing things came here as free and full members of the workforce, free to choose their own path in life, rather than as "guest workers" forced to work in a field dictated by their employer. Unfortunately, a grim look at US history will make it pretty clear that the a decent chunk of US was built on the backs of people who were not free. But I certainly would agree with the IEEE that freedom of choice is a much better guiding principle than coercive programs controlled by corporations who control their employee's rights to live and work in the US (we can disagree about test first development, but I don't like the idea that the person who insists on it can have the person who questions it deported). While it's may be good politics not to question the $138k a year salary paid to a Facebook employee, I hope that here on HN we can agree that $138k isn't a remarkable salary for highly skilled, critical technology worker in Silicon Valley. This is a place where a house costs well over a million a year. In San Francisco, the median salary for a registered nurse is about $133k a year (http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/s... I absolutely am not complaining, registered nurses are talented people who deserve excellent salaries. But it does kind of put it in perspective, that Facebook, a multi multi billion dollar corporation, is dealing with such a critical shortage of high skilled technologists that it is forced to pay them about roughly what a registered nurse earns in the region. Sounds to me like if people choose to become registered nurses rather than Facebook engineers, the market is working exactly as it should, and I see no reason to create a visa program that denies immigrants the right to make that choice just because Facebook thinks it knows best for them and their lives.
- jogjayr 10y ago
  > While it's may be good politics not to question the $138k a year salary paid to a Facebook employee, I hope that here on HN we can agree that $138k isn't a remarkable salary for highly skilled, critical technology worker in Silicon Valley. Important to point out that the reported $138k doesn't include (AFAIK) RSUs, stock grants and stock options. That could easily add another $70-100k to the compensation. If anyone knows otherwise, please feel free to correct me.
NumberSix 10y ago
One issue that the article overlooks is how many jobs the Microsofts, Googles, Apples, Facebooks, etc. outsource to the H1-B outsourcing companies such as WiPro, Cognizant etc. I have met many consultants in the Silicon Valley who work for Apple through a firm such as WiPro. These contractors salaries presumably would not show up in the salaries for H1-B employees working directly for these large, high-profile companies.

46 points by teklaperry 10y ago

It is taking stands like this that is the reason why I am a member of the IEEE Computer Society and not of the ACM.

Problem explained well. I would have loved to hear their take on how to solve it... > We oppose the expansion of H1-B program. > Greencard holders are not bad, they add to labor. - Good. Are they suggesting that high skilled labors should be given green cards instead of the visa? The problem of identifying who is a high skilled labor and who is not still remains.

untog 10y ago

Fixing this would be quite possible, if the government had the appetite to do so. Mandate that H1B workers must work in the office of their employer and you remove a large market for outsourcing companies to "rent" employees to others. It's absurd that these companies are allowed to abuse the program, and also take up as many visas as they do. I know both startups and foreign workers who have attempted to use H1B to work in the company but been denied because there aren't enough available.

tn13 10y ago
This makes H1B worker more restricted who is already screwed up pretty bad. Government can not track where people work. Can the person work from home ? Can the X Inc. rent out their 4 cubicles to Infosys? The obvious solution for H1B is to increase the cap from 85K to 200K or so while giving instant green-cards to all the pending applicants.

matt_s 10y ago

They didn't really call out what a fix would be, but maybe the legislation of the visas could require sponsorship by host company for green card and a timeframe for them to get that as well as an expedited route to attaining green card. This would make the H-1B visas exactly for specialized skills that might not be able to be sourced in the US or at least be for skills that are in high demand. It would fit the current administration's nationalistic agenda and it would reduce the half-pay visa's that the body shops bring into the country.

cmurf 10y ago
They're directly arguing in favor of putting skilled foreign workers on a path to citizenship, and not even mess around with H-1B's. If the argument is America lacks enough of certain skilled workers, recruit these workers into becoming Americans. This is in contrast to the Republican position which is to set a minimum wage for H-1B holders, which is rather ironic that they'll support a minimum wage there as a form of protectionism, but won't support a federal minimum wage increase. But that's typical Republican classism. Between that, and the current administration's blatantly anti-immigrant stance, I'm unconvinced we're going to see a good policy change in the near term, and instead it'll just be a rearranging of the deck chairs with a lot of red cape action to distract people from the issues.

vparikh 10y ago

The problem with the H-1B is that you are basically tied to the company that sponsored you. The one fundamental change that needs to happen is that the H-1B is issued for a period of X years to work in the country - not X years to work for Y company. This is would give H-1B holders the same level playing field to actually receive fair compensation as Americans have. If the companies were truly hiring H-1B because of a lack of talent, then they would be happy just to be able to have the required skill sets to be available.

kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
How is this true? You are not effectively tied to your employer in an H-1B visa (unlike in L-1, where you are). If you work for say Google, and want to shift to Facebook, FB can just apply for the H-1B for you and while the actual paperwork takes time, you can move jobs in a couple of weeks. And if you clear the lottery once, you are not subjected to it again. So, modulo the $2-3K that FB will have to spend to apply for your H-1B, how else are you tied to Google?
- geebee 10y ago
  The median salary for a registered nurse in San Francisco is $133,650 a year. How easy would it be for a software engineer on an H1B to become a registered nurse instead? As a citizen, I could do this, in response to my interests and market signals. Or I could install drywall, open a sandwich shop, sell real estate, or try to make a go of life as a writer or artists. Freedom. Nobody owes me success, but I am free to pursue happiness as I define it. Most immigrants, well over a million a year, who come to the US actually have similar freedom. Interestingly, Facebook, a multi multi billion dollar corporation, can't find enough workers who are free to choose their path in life, not from the 300+ million existing US citizens, not from the million+ who come here every year. It needs help from the government, to create a special program that allows Facebook's HR department to decide who is and isn't allowed to come here, in response to Facebook's hiring needs. Remarkable. Yes, I agree, people do overstate the case and often claim that H1Bs can't change employers, and yes, I agree, this is false. There are some very limited options for mobility. Provided you handle the paperwork correctly and limit yourself to sponsoring corporations, you can be a developer at this big corp, that big corp, or maybe even that other smaller corp that sponsored a visa. So here's my point - claiming that H1B holders can change jobs, without that context, is almost as inaccurate as claiming they can't. H1B holders absolutely are not free and full participants in our labor market, and there's no question that this is why some employers like this program so much, and prefer to use it over hiring those who are free (to negotiate and leave).

geebee 10y ago

I'm glad to see IEEE take a principled stand against expansion of the H1B program, and I'm particularly glad to see them take on the claim that support for the H1B program is equivalent to support for immigrants or immigration. Unfortunately, they get it slightly wrong when they claim that the UC was built by green card holders rather than guest workers. I think I know what they mean here - that the immigrants we celebrate who did amazing things came here as free and full members of the workforce, free to choose their own path in life, rather than as "guest workers" forced to work in a field dictated by their employer. Unfortunately, a grim look at US history will make it pretty clear that the a decent chunk of US was built on the backs of people who were not free. But I certainly would agree with the IEEE that freedom of choice is a much better guiding principle than coercive programs controlled by corporations who control their employee's rights to live and work in the US (we can disagree about test first development, but I don't like the idea that the person who insists on it can have the person who questions it deported). While it's may be good politics not to question the $138k a year salary paid to a Facebook employee, I hope that here on HN we can agree that $138k isn't a remarkable salary for highly skilled, critical technology worker in Silicon Valley. This is a place where a house costs well over a million a year. In San Francisco, the median salary for a registered nurse is about $133k a year (http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/s... I absolutely am not complaining, registered nurses are talented people who deserve excellent salaries. But it does kind of put it in perspective, that Facebook, a multi multi billion dollar corporation, is dealing with such a critical shortage of high skilled technologists that it is forced to pay them about roughly what a registered nurse earns in the region. Sounds to me like if people choose to become registered nurses rather than Facebook engineers, the market is working exactly as it should, and I see no reason to create a visa program that denies immigrants the right to make that choice just because Facebook thinks it knows best for them and their lives.

jogjayr 10y ago
> While it's may be good politics not to question the $138k a year salary paid to a Facebook employee, I hope that here on HN we can agree that $138k isn't a remarkable salary for highly skilled, critical technology worker in Silicon Valley. Important to point out that the reported $138k doesn't include (AFAIK) RSUs, stock grants and stock options. That could easily add another $70-100k to the compensation. If anyone knows otherwise, please feel free to correct me.

NumberSix 10y ago

One issue that the article overlooks is how many jobs the Microsofts, Googles, Apples, Facebooks, etc. outsource to the H1-B outsourcing companies such as WiPro, Cognizant etc. I have met many consultants in the Silicon Valley who work for Apple through a firm such as WiPro. These contractors salaries presumably would not show up in the salaries for H1-B employees working directly for these large, high-profile companies.