6 ms·

Perhaps because I had terrible schooling that never taught this kind of stuff: The Selfish Gene. Getting a solid grounding in how life can arise without, well,

Perhaps because I had terrible schooling that never taught this kind of stuff: The Selfish Gene. Getting a solid grounding in how life can arise without, well, magic, shifted my thinking quite a bit. At a low level, life has no inherent meaning, so it's whatever we make of it. For many this is probably obvious, but if you grew up in a rather fundamentalist religious environment, it's quite the change!

otalp 10y ago
Absolutely. I had like one page in my textbook dedicated to evolution, so when I read The Selfish Gene and everything clicked and it all made sense, it was the sort of 'eureka' moment I'd always heard about. Yet sadly 90% of the population still misunderstand/poorly understand evolution by natural selection. They seem to think it's progressive, or some mysterious force of nature that produces "better" animals over time.
jwillis57 10y ago
Before you downvote this comment and dismiss it, consider it a valid discussion. What are your thoughts on folks that believe in a God that created the laws of nature that are consistent with our scientific models? This is to say a person 1) believes in God and 2) believes that God put forth the laws of nature that are consistent with teachings in the scientific community.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Well it's not contradictory per se - nothing disproves a god hand-adjusting mutations, for instance. It's just got a lack of evidence which means we should assign it a low probability. More commonly what I see is that people aren't 100% intellectually honest when they get into it. They don't apply the same rigor to their religious beliefs as they do others. Or they sort of re-interpret or cherry pick themselves around their scriptures to avoid awkward parts. Or they start stepping back and making less powerful claims than their religion traditionally did. Sometimes they step all the way back into "well what if God is just the laws of physics?". At that point I don't think it's much of a technical discussion and more like, hey, if this comforts someone, and it's not making them make bad decisions (like hurting others based on this belief), well I'm not gonna waste my personal energy arguing. I mean, so long they aren't arguing that the creator of all spacetime and beyond, of infinite knowledge and capability, cares how we dress or who we sleep with ... eh, fine whatever. Now, people selling water claiming it can cure cancer, that's another story ;).
- skilesare 10y ago
  One might think that that god leaves a lot to be desired and that god is probably a tool of a god.
- otalp 10y ago
  Given the scarcity of life in the universe in general, and the alarming rate of extinction in nature - more than 99% of all living things to ever exist are extinct, it's one thing to say the universe was designed with a purpose. But you can't really say that it was designed with life in mind. Life, and Earth- do not occupy a privilaged position in the universe. If you accept that- and all evidence points to that being the case, you cannot make a case for a theistic God.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    you sound much too certain about this. the fact is we really know almost nothing about extra-terrestrial life. I'm not making an argument in any way shape or form for a divine creation to the universe. I'm just trying to point out that you're making claims you can't possibly support with evidence and sounding as if you're certain of them in the way that people are certain about evidence backed claims. in other words, you're speaking from dogma not from knowledge.
- tptacek 10y ago
  This is what most educated Christians believe, and basically what I was taught in 12 years of Catholic school; it's a thoroughly mainstream position.
  - altern8tif 10y ago
    How do Catholics (or Protestants) reconcile evolution with the Creation of Man then? Did God create Man or did he create the laws of natural selection that created Man?
    - wolf550e 10y ago
      Unlike evolution, abiogenesis has never been demonstrated in a Petri dish. Same for the Big Bang. In my understanding, some theists believe God "instantiated" a universe with certain parameters which we perceive as physical constants, that naturally led to hydrogen transforming itself into consciousness after 13.7 billion years. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he did it on purpose fully knowing how it will develop. So physics, geology, biology, etc. are all true and also the Genesis creation myth is kinda true (they believe genesis is a metaphor for people lacking the education to understand the full story).
- ericssmith 10y ago
  "Je n’avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là." -- Pierre-Simon Laplace
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- keithnz 10y ago
  I think if you assume there is a god compatible with science, I don't think there is any god account that matches this. Most accounts of the various gods involve violation of the laws of physics. I think if it's the bible god we are talking about, then I've seen a lot of mental energy spent on trying to work out how it might be compatible. Seems to me, it's driven more by a desire not to give up ones belief in god than a rational desire to find the truth.
softwarerero 10y ago
Interesting, I had almost the opposite experience after having grown up in a fundamentalistic atheist environment. When I read the bible with an attitude like "God, if you really exist I will listen", it seemed somehow I understood what I read for the first time. It was the strongest experience I had in my life. This is over 30 years ago, I'm a senior developer now) and I still read almost daily in the bible. No other book has really changed the way I think about the world to any close extend.
- olalonde 10y ago
  > "God, if you really exist I will listen" I think most atheists would agree with that statement and would want a benevolent God to exist.
  - dionidium 10y ago
    Maybe most, but certainly not all. See: Christopher Hitchens: "[Religious belief] is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!?"
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    I mean, that's sort of what I want out of AI. A Culture-like Mind, like one of the hubs in an orbital. Resource allocation issues would cease to exist if we had a benevolent god or something like it!
dakrootie 10y ago
I completely agree. The Selfish Gene did more to change my view of the world than any other book I've ever read. Not in a religious sense, as many others cite, but rather it laid the foundation for a deeper understanding of people, culture, violent behavior, herd mentality, etc. It's a masterpiece.

otalp 10y ago

Absolutely. I had like one page in my textbook dedicated to evolution, so when I read The Selfish Gene and everything clicked and it all made sense, it was the sort of 'eureka' moment I'd always heard about. Yet sadly 90% of the population still misunderstand/poorly understand evolution by natural selection. They seem to think it's progressive, or some mysterious force of nature that produces "better" animals over time.

jwillis57 10y ago

Before you downvote this comment and dismiss it, consider it a valid discussion. What are your thoughts on folks that believe in a God that created the laws of nature that are consistent with our scientific models? This is to say a person 1) believes in God and 2) believes that God put forth the laws of nature that are consistent with teachings in the scientific community.

MichaelGG 10y ago
Well it's not contradictory per se - nothing disproves a god hand-adjusting mutations, for instance. It's just got a lack of evidence which means we should assign it a low probability. More commonly what I see is that people aren't 100% intellectually honest when they get into it. They don't apply the same rigor to their religious beliefs as they do others. Or they sort of re-interpret or cherry pick themselves around their scriptures to avoid awkward parts. Or they start stepping back and making less powerful claims than their religion traditionally did. Sometimes they step all the way back into "well what if God is just the laws of physics?". At that point I don't think it's much of a technical discussion and more like, hey, if this comforts someone, and it's not making them make bad decisions (like hurting others based on this belief), well I'm not gonna waste my personal energy arguing. I mean, so long they aren't arguing that the creator of all spacetime and beyond, of infinite knowledge and capability, cares how we dress or who we sleep with ... eh, fine whatever. Now, people selling water claiming it can cure cancer, that's another story ;).
skilesare 10y ago
One might think that that god leaves a lot to be desired and that god is probably a tool of a god.
otalp 10y ago
Given the scarcity of life in the universe in general, and the alarming rate of extinction in nature - more than 99% of all living things to ever exist are extinct, it's one thing to say the universe was designed with a purpose. But you can't really say that it was designed with life in mind. Life, and Earth- do not occupy a privilaged position in the universe. If you accept that- and all evidence points to that being the case, you cannot make a case for a theistic God.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  you sound much too certain about this. the fact is we really know almost nothing about extra-terrestrial life. I'm not making an argument in any way shape or form for a divine creation to the universe. I'm just trying to point out that you're making claims you can't possibly support with evidence and sounding as if you're certain of them in the way that people are certain about evidence backed claims. in other words, you're speaking from dogma not from knowledge.
tptacek 10y ago
This is what most educated Christians believe, and basically what I was taught in 12 years of Catholic school; it's a thoroughly mainstream position.
- altern8tif 10y ago
  How do Catholics (or Protestants) reconcile evolution with the Creation of Man then? Did God create Man or did he create the laws of natural selection that created Man?
  - wolf550e 10y ago
    Unlike evolution, abiogenesis has never been demonstrated in a Petri dish. Same for the Big Bang. In my understanding, some theists believe God "instantiated" a universe with certain parameters which we perceive as physical constants, that naturally led to hydrogen transforming itself into consciousness after 13.7 billion years. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he did it on purpose fully knowing how it will develop. So physics, geology, biology, etc. are all true and also the Genesis creation myth is kinda true (they believe genesis is a metaphor for people lacking the education to understand the full story).
ericssmith 10y ago
"Je n’avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là." -- Pierre-Simon Laplace
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
keithnz 10y ago
I think if you assume there is a god compatible with science, I don't think there is any god account that matches this. Most accounts of the various gods involve violation of the laws of physics. I think if it's the bible god we are talking about, then I've seen a lot of mental energy spent on trying to work out how it might be compatible. Seems to me, it's driven more by a desire not to give up ones belief in god than a rational desire to find the truth.

softwarerero 10y ago

Interesting, I had almost the opposite experience after having grown up in a fundamentalistic atheist environment. When I read the bible with an attitude like "God, if you really exist I will listen", it seemed somehow I understood what I read for the first time. It was the strongest experience I had in my life. This is over 30 years ago, I'm a senior developer now) and I still read almost daily in the bible. No other book has really changed the way I think about the world to any close extend.

olalonde 10y ago
> "God, if you really exist I will listen" I think most atheists would agree with that statement and would want a benevolent God to exist.
- dionidium 10y ago
  Maybe most, but certainly not all. See: Christopher Hitchens: "[Religious belief] is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!?"
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  I mean, that's sort of what I want out of AI. A Culture-like Mind, like one of the hubs in an orbital. Resource allocation issues would cease to exist if we had a benevolent god or something like it!

dakrootie 10y ago

I completely agree. The Selfish Gene did more to change my view of the world than any other book I've ever read. Not in a religious sense, as many others cite, but rather it laid the foundation for a deeper understanding of people, culture, violent behavior, herd mentality, etc. It's a masterpiece.