6 ms·

For me a huge change the past years was the coming of Bitwig Studio audio workstation to Linux. Commercial software, but rock solid and high quality.

by zevv 10y ago

flavor8 10y ago
Do you have to jump through Jack shenanigans to get it working? Or does it just work, nicely?
- baldfat 10y ago
  I don't care what OS your on. When you start talking about latency it is all a nightmare. If latency isn't an issue then Pulse Audio works totally fine. I actually like Jack when it is concerning latency and think it is a good system. BUT it is a pain. I used 2 separate sound cards. One is a Pro level I/O breakout box that Jack controls and the on board sound card is controlled by PulseAudio.
  - tjr225 10y ago
    I have no issues with latency on MacOS with absolutely zero configuration. It's one of the reasons I won't switch from MacOS to linux.
    - squeaky-clean 10y ago
      Likewise, none of my audio devices have required special drivers for Mac, and I can easily get 3ms latency by just plugging it in and making sure buffer size it at a minimum. I produced on Windows forever and didn't believe there would have been a noticeable difference switching to OSX.
      - baldfat 10y ago
        I have never in my life seen a Mac out perform a Window machine when it comes to latency and professional audio recording. When it comes to $100-$200 parts it comes to drivers and sometimes Mac wins and sometimes Windows wins. I have a bias that goes beyond Pro-Tools but Pro-Tools was a thing because Apple hardware was not capable of producing Professional level recording without spending thousands of dollars in their proprietary hardware. Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue and both platforms require a lot of end user work to get lower and lower latency. The issue is really only significant for recording audio and not as much when doing live audio. Any modern platforms latency light years ahead of 2000 audio production. The idea that Mac is better for audio or video because of the OS is marketing and not based on real life professional use of the platforms.
        eropple 10y ago
        > Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue Core Audio literally-just-works with low latency and aggregated devices. DAWs on Windows still either use MME/DX for north of 50ms, often 100ms+ latency or ASIO (exclusive device usage and no aggregation, assuming your hardware even has ASIO drivers because ASIO4ALL is at best rickety) on Windows. I don't know what you think is going on with OS X, but I suggest re-evaluating your assumptions.
        dwringer 10y ago
        ... but with ASIO, it is quite possible to get 3ms latency in Windows at 96kHz. I agree it would be nice if the device weren't locked up by the DAW using ASIO, or if updated driver support weren't so hit-and miss, but it still works exceptionally well for what it is. It also makes Windows completely viable as a production platform.
        squeaky-clean 10y ago
        No one here is saying Windows isn't a viable platform. Just arguing that OSX also works well, if not better by default. You yourself just listed some examples where Windows cannot do things that OSX can (device exclusivity through ASIO).
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        eropple 10y ago
        Yes, it totally is possible. But it's worse than Core Audio for most use cases.
        squarefoot 10y ago
        All decent hardware has ASIO drivers under Windows. The problem there, being a closed environment where the manufacturer dictates when the product must die, is rather the drivers life. If they don't update the driver your pricey gear turns into a doorstop overnight. Case in point: Tascam US122 audio interface. Under Linux I can still use it; far from being the best around but it works. Under Windows it became unusable when they stopped supporting it years ago.
      - gens 10y ago
        I find bout of your claims hard to believe as OSX has a sound architecture similar to PulseAudio. Are the 3ms measured or is it just what OSX tells you ? A buffer of 3ms at 48kHz holds 144 samples. That means shoveling 144 fresh samples (per channel, ofc) ~333 times a second and sending them to the sound card immediately. That may be possible if your sound card supports resampling (and minor magic) and only without a sound server (OSX uses one). Either that or you have an impressive cpu. Feel free to correct me at any point. edit: PS This is only the program->sound_card part. Programs themselves add a ton of latency and sound cards add to it as well. In reality even 10ms is beyond perfect conditions.
        YZF 10y ago
        The problem isn't the CPU, the problem is the OS going out for lunch, and then designs that assume the OS will go our for lunch (i.e. deep buffers everywhere)... The CPU can move data between devices with sub-microsecond latencies...
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        akx 10y ago
        I thought I'd try and measure this at some resolution (since my phone can capture at 120 FPS, I should be able to see 8 millisecond increments in a video). Stepping frame by frame through the video I took (https://youtu.be/IHmC-q_iPiE https://youtu.be/IHmC-q_iPiE) at the point where I press the key to sound a note, there's a 4 to 5 frame latency until I can visually see the speaker membrane move, so that's about 33 to 41 milliseconds. Bitwig is set to 64 samples (1.45 ms) latency.
    - baldfat 10y ago
      I then question your need for low latency? OS X and MacOS requires just as much work to get to the lowest latency and your handicapped if your have an Apple laptop. Your latency will be about the same as PusleAudio on Linux if you use default OS X MacOS settings. In most real world settings Windows will get a lower latency mostly due to better hardware on a Professional setup compared to the less then top end audio of Apple. Apple machine require a lot of engineering in the software to achieve low latency. Here is the focusrite help page dealing with latency and what you must turn off for recording. https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207546515-Optimising-your-Mac-for-Audio https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207546515-Op...
      - squeaky-clean 10y ago
        Those links are either out of date or completely incorrect. None of this has ever been necessary for me on a Mac. Focusrite doesn't even offer Mac drivers for most of their products, as the support is built in, for example[0], so I don't know why it's advising you to update your drivers. [0] https://us.focusrite.com/downloads?product=Scarlett+2i4 https://us.focusrite.com/downloads?product=Scarlett+2i4
        eropple 10y ago
        Seriously. A friend brought over his 2i4 for a project and my Mac was able to plug-and-play with it at 5ms latency. That page is "dissuade people from calling tech support", not the reality of how audio actually works on OS X.
        baldfat 10y ago
        There is no way you have 5ms latency with a USB port. Your measuring it wrong. USB audio devices have built in buffers that add to your 5ms latency. http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-which-audio-interface-format-best-low-latency http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-which-audio-inter... yes its 2009 but it is still sound science.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- thecrumb 10y ago
  On Linux Mint - install, configure your inputs, select your soundcard/device, done. It will work fine with Alsa. It will also support JACK but for quickly getting up and running it's about the simplest DAW I've setup on Linux configuration wise. Not open source but I give them lots of kudos for supporting Linux from the start.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
sowbug 10y ago
Slightly off-topic, but does Bitwig have a restrictive licensing scheme that makes reinstallation cumbersome? I love FL Studio because it doesn't have a limit on number of installations. As a geek, I change my main machine often, and it's so convenient to install FL Studio if I get an itch to bang something out, and not to worry about how many activations I've used up. Ableton is a turn-off for this reason. They're actually pretty cool about adding activations if you let them know you're moving machines, but it offends me to ask permission to use something I've already paid for. If Bitwig (1) works well on Linux, (2) works well as a DAW, and (3) doesn't dick around with activation rules, then I'd be delighted both to support them and to switch my (current) hobby workstation from Windows to Linux.
- shermanyo 10y ago
  There are restrictions, but they're quite flexible. I have a main PC and a couple laptops I switch between, and have no issues. You can activate 2 systems permanently, which is managed simply from the web UI. (revoke activations) Other systems can be activated temporarily with your email/id + pass on startup. FWIW, the small team has been fantastic and responsive since the beginning. (I've been on the betas and helped develop some of the early controller scripts. check the community pages to see what we've done) I got a NFR license for helping out early on, and ran into the activation limit initially. (testing on all platforms, etc...) I emailed them a few times to deactivate my current systems initially, then they added the option to their account management page. If its a deal breaker, I suggest emailing them and seeing what they say. It wouldn't surprise me if they upped the limit or did something to help you out. They're an awesome group who really want to work with the community and users. Not affiliated besides what I mentioned above, just a happy user. Best of luck, if you have any questions PM me or reply here if you think relevant to others :)
  - sowbug 10y ago
    Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The self-service activation manager sounds like a step up from Ableton. Still not as great as FL Studio's free-wheelin' attitude, but better.

For me a huge change the past years was the coming of Bitwig Studio audio workstation to Linux. Commercial software, but rock solid and high quality.

by zevv 10y ago

For me a huge change the past years was the coming of Bitwig Studio audio workstation to Linux. Commercial software, but rock solid and high quality.

flavor8 10y ago

Do you have to jump through Jack shenanigans to get it working? Or does it just work, nicely?

baldfat 10y ago
I don't care what OS your on. When you start talking about latency it is all a nightmare. If latency isn't an issue then Pulse Audio works totally fine. I actually like Jack when it is concerning latency and think it is a good system. BUT it is a pain. I used 2 separate sound cards. One is a Pro level I/O breakout box that Jack controls and the on board sound card is controlled by PulseAudio.
- tjr225 10y ago
  I have no issues with latency on MacOS with absolutely zero configuration. It's one of the reasons I won't switch from MacOS to linux.
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    Likewise, none of my audio devices have required special drivers for Mac, and I can easily get 3ms latency by just plugging it in and making sure buffer size it at a minimum. I produced on Windows forever and didn't believe there would have been a noticeable difference switching to OSX.
    - baldfat 10y ago
      I have never in my life seen a Mac out perform a Window machine when it comes to latency and professional audio recording. When it comes to $100-$200 parts it comes to drivers and sometimes Mac wins and sometimes Windows wins. I have a bias that goes beyond Pro-Tools but Pro-Tools was a thing because Apple hardware was not capable of producing Professional level recording without spending thousands of dollars in their proprietary hardware. Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue and both platforms require a lot of end user work to get lower and lower latency. The issue is really only significant for recording audio and not as much when doing live audio. Any modern platforms latency light years ahead of 2000 audio production. The idea that Mac is better for audio or video because of the OS is marketing and not based on real life professional use of the platforms.
      - eropple 10y ago
        > Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue Core Audio literally-just-works with low latency and aggregated devices. DAWs on Windows still either use MME/DX for north of 50ms, often 100ms+ latency or ASIO (exclusive device usage and no aggregation, assuming your hardware even has ASIO drivers because ASIO4ALL is at best rickety) on Windows. I don't know what you think is going on with OS X, but I suggest re-evaluating your assumptions.
        dwringer 10y ago
        ... but with ASIO, it is quite possible to get 3ms latency in Windows at 96kHz. I agree it would be nice if the device weren't locked up by the DAW using ASIO, or if updated driver support weren't so hit-and miss, but it still works exceptionally well for what it is. It also makes Windows completely viable as a production platform.
        squeaky-clean 10y ago
        No one here is saying Windows isn't a viable platform. Just arguing that OSX also works well, if not better by default. You yourself just listed some examples where Windows cannot do things that OSX can (device exclusivity through ASIO).
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        eropple 10y ago
        Yes, it totally is possible. But it's worse than Core Audio for most use cases.
        squarefoot 10y ago
        All decent hardware has ASIO drivers under Windows. The problem there, being a closed environment where the manufacturer dictates when the product must die, is rather the drivers life. If they don't update the driver your pricey gear turns into a doorstop overnight. Case in point: Tascam US122 audio interface. Under Linux I can still use it; far from being the best around but it works. Under Windows it became unusable when they stopped supporting it years ago.
    - gens 10y ago
      I find bout of your claims hard to believe as OSX has a sound architecture similar to PulseAudio. Are the 3ms measured or is it just what OSX tells you ? A buffer of 3ms at 48kHz holds 144 samples. That means shoveling 144 fresh samples (per channel, ofc) ~333 times a second and sending them to the sound card immediately. That may be possible if your sound card supports resampling (and minor magic) and only without a sound server (OSX uses one). Either that or you have an impressive cpu. Feel free to correct me at any point. edit: PS This is only the program->sound_card part. Programs themselves add a ton of latency and sound cards add to it as well. In reality even 10ms is beyond perfect conditions.
      - YZF 10y ago
        The problem isn't the CPU, the problem is the OS going out for lunch, and then designs that assume the OS will go our for lunch (i.e. deep buffers everywhere)... The CPU can move data between devices with sub-microsecond latencies...
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - akx 10y ago
        I thought I'd try and measure this at some resolution (since my phone can capture at 120 FPS, I should be able to see 8 millisecond increments in a video). Stepping frame by frame through the video I took (https://youtu.be/IHmC-q_iPiE https://youtu.be/IHmC-q_iPiE) at the point where I press the key to sound a note, there's a 4 to 5 frame latency until I can visually see the speaker membrane move, so that's about 33 to 41 milliseconds. Bitwig is set to 64 samples (1.45 ms) latency.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    I then question your need for low latency? OS X and MacOS requires just as much work to get to the lowest latency and your handicapped if your have an Apple laptop. Your latency will be about the same as PusleAudio on Linux if you use default OS X MacOS settings. In most real world settings Windows will get a lower latency mostly due to better hardware on a Professional setup compared to the less then top end audio of Apple. Apple machine require a lot of engineering in the software to achieve low latency. Here is the focusrite help page dealing with latency and what you must turn off for recording. https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207546515-Optimising-your-Mac-for-Audio https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207546515-Op...
    - squeaky-clean 10y ago
      Those links are either out of date or completely incorrect. None of this has ever been necessary for me on a Mac. Focusrite doesn't even offer Mac drivers for most of their products, as the support is built in, for example[0], so I don't know why it's advising you to update your drivers. [0] https://us.focusrite.com/downloads?product=Scarlett+2i4 https://us.focusrite.com/downloads?product=Scarlett+2i4
      - eropple 10y ago
        Seriously. A friend brought over his 2i4 for a project and my Mac was able to plug-and-play with it at 5ms latency. That page is "dissuade people from calling tech support", not the reality of how audio actually works on OS X.
        baldfat 10y ago
        There is no way you have 5ms latency with a USB port. Your measuring it wrong. USB audio devices have built in buffers that add to your 5ms latency. http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-which-audio-interface-format-best-low-latency http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-which-audio-inter... yes its 2009 but it is still sound science.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
thecrumb 10y ago
On Linux Mint - install, configure your inputs, select your soundcard/device, done. It will work fine with Alsa. It will also support JACK but for quickly getting up and running it's about the simplest DAW I've setup on Linux configuration wise. Not open source but I give them lots of kudos for supporting Linux from the start.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

sowbug 10y ago

Slightly off-topic, but does Bitwig have a restrictive licensing scheme that makes reinstallation cumbersome? I love FL Studio because it doesn't have a limit on number of installations. As a geek, I change my main machine often, and it's so convenient to install FL Studio if I get an itch to bang something out, and not to worry about how many activations I've used up. Ableton is a turn-off for this reason. They're actually pretty cool about adding activations if you let them know you're moving machines, but it offends me to ask permission to use something I've already paid for. If Bitwig (1) works well on Linux, (2) works well as a DAW, and (3) doesn't dick around with activation rules, then I'd be delighted both to support them and to switch my (current) hobby workstation from Windows to Linux.

shermanyo 10y ago
There are restrictions, but they're quite flexible. I have a main PC and a couple laptops I switch between, and have no issues. You can activate 2 systems permanently, which is managed simply from the web UI. (revoke activations) Other systems can be activated temporarily with your email/id + pass on startup. FWIW, the small team has been fantastic and responsive since the beginning. (I've been on the betas and helped develop some of the early controller scripts. check the community pages to see what we've done) I got a NFR license for helping out early on, and ran into the activation limit initially. (testing on all platforms, etc...) I emailed them a few times to deactivate my current systems initially, then they added the option to their account management page. If its a deal breaker, I suggest emailing them and seeing what they say. It wouldn't surprise me if they upped the limit or did something to help you out. They're an awesome group who really want to work with the community and users. Not affiliated besides what I mentioned above, just a happy user. Best of luck, if you have any questions PM me or reply here if you think relevant to others :)
- sowbug 10y ago
  Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The self-service activation manager sounds like a step up from Ableton. Still not as great as FL Studio's free-wheelin' attitude, but better.