3 ms·

sure you can live on $13,900 a year in some third world hell hole, but in that third world hell hole, your $13,900 would actually be $2,900/yr. Sure a solid me

by vaksel 16y ago

sure you can live on $13,900 a year in some third world hell hole, but in that third world hell hole, your $13,900 would actually be $2,900/yr. Sure a solid meal would cost only $1 to $2...all we need to remove is the part that doesn't allow companies to sell you contaminated beef, or the part that states that a company needs to state nutritional information on the back of the package. You can't compare a salary, without taking cost of living into the equation. Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Please tell me how you'd live on $765 a month. And remember to live, you need to pay rent, pay for utilities, pay for food, pay for gas/bus tickets. Sure you lived on less than that...but I bet at the time, you stayed with your mommy and daddy...or you lived on campus where your loans or once again mommy and daddy paid for rent. Yes most of the world would kill to live on $13,900 a year....but most of the world, doesn't have the same high cost of living as we do in US.

lionhearted 16y ago
I'll answer this comment, but before I do, can I ask a question? - What's your goal behind this discussion? Are you trying to learn, debate, convince me, convince other people, just pass the time? I posted originally to share my perspective with people, and then I try to respond to comments and inquiries to get a good discussion going. Because I can answer your comment seriously if you're open-minded and think there's a chance your views will evolve. Likewise, I'm open to my views evolving if I see something good. Otherwise, if it's for third parties or just entertainment, I'll probably break from this comment thread since I've said the basics of what I think and probably not so many people are following it any more. Anyways... > Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Well, three points. First, you pay a bit less than that in taxes at the low end. Second, I already said I'm not in favor of this kind of forced law and I'm not in favor of an income tax, uninsurance, or social security at all. Third, if you are paying taxes that high, you're probably funding benefits that you can get. So you're either living on $765 after taxes but then you get government benefits, or most of $1160 with lower taxes. But let's say that's roughly a wash and your real pay in cash and/or benefits is $1000 per month. I did a quick search in the Chicago Craigslist just to pick a random big city. There's quite a few roommates/shared bedrooms in the $400 to $500 per month range. If you look, I'm sure you can find cheaper. I was in Hong Kong two months ago. You can pay $15/night for very small private room/shared bathroom in a cheap place on Kowloon. An all you can ride train pass is between $70 and $120 in most large cities. So we're at $500 now for rent and transport in a city. You can eat oatmeal and rice and beans as your staples, then mix in a little tuna fish, chicken, and fruit and vegetables. Oatmeal and rice beans are so cheap they're basically free, you're looking at $20 to $30 the entire month total for 60 meals. Go crazy and say $5 worth of protein, fruits, and vegetables per day and your food budget is $170. You drink tap water which is almost free, instant coffee will run you $10 to $20 for the month. So that's under $200. If you cook with people, you can eat better food for the same prices. Buy whatever's on sale for meal, fruit, and vegetables, in Los Angeles last year I was sometimes able to get a medium sized pack of Strawberries for $2 at Ralph's when they'd shipped too many. Really, anyone who doesn't think $1000/month is livable in the USA has been incredibly blessed. Plenty of immigrants and people working their way up live on much less. You share space with multiple people, maybe you only get 1/4th of a large bedroom with three other roommates and share one bathroom and a small kitchen. You cook most of your meals and don't eat out much. You take public transit, walk, or a bicycle. It's not glamorous, it's not awesome, it's not fun, but it's doable. And again, the goal isn't to stay in a low wage job forever, we're doing all this math with a 40 hour work week, which is plenty of time to look for other opportunities, train yourself, etc. As for me when I lived poor - I dropped out of high school and left home at 16, and never took a dime in cash from my parents since leaving home. Not a single dime. So the mommy and daddy comment isn't quite accurate. Ah, I was about to share a story about what life was like back then, but it'd take a while to type. It's not awesome, but you survive, grow, do what you can to improve, and you make it. But I'll ask if you don't mind answering: what's your objective here? Are you open to changing your mind on this if I give reasonable, well thought answers to your questions? I don't mind spending the time on this if something positive could come of it.
- vaksel 16y ago
  just having a discussion. Technically you pay less in taxes on the low end, but those taxes get taken out every two weeks, you just get a refund at the end of the year. It doesn't really matter what you are in favor of, the taxes will still be taken out of your paycheck. Of course you get things in exchange for your taxes. It's nice to say "well in the perfect world you could live on X", but we don't live in a perfect world. That's why I'm no longer a liberterian. Fine let's say you have $1,000 per month in cash. And fine, let's say you find a roommate deal at $450 a month.(btw once again, don't bring up hong kong or other countries, we are talking about you wanting to eliminate American minimum wage). Oh and let's not forget the $450 deals are fairly rare, so if millions of people start getting paid below minimum wage, those few good deals will be snagged up quickly. Anyways that leaves $550. Minus your $70 for the train pass, $480. The food issue is a good one. The $200 you spend, gets you just enough not to starve to death. Do you think 40 hours of labor shouldn't be enough to avoid not starving? So we are down to $280 a month. But have you forgotten something? The water bill? The gas bill? The electricity bill? The phone bill? What about all those other expenses? Like health insurance, replacement clothing, etc? And of course the goal is to get a better paying job. But by not having a minimum wage, you have wage depression. When you can pay entry level slaves $3 an hour, you can pay the guy with 6 years experience $5 an hour. And what kind of mobility do you think someone working at MickeyDs have? The goal here, is for you to realize, that there needs to be a living wage. Where working 40 hours a week, should be enough to make ends meet. How about the ideal of the 50s? Where you could work 40 hours a week in an entry level job, and could afford a house with white picket fence, a car, and basic luxuries and could support your family? Your whole argument is based around a young, single, healthy guy, going through a rough patch. Not the situation, that the minimum wage laws were created for. What's with this idea that the people should be ground down into the dirt? We already have 39.1 million people in poverty in United States, why do you think we need to increase that number? The difference between $7 an hour and $3 an hour for Mickey Ds, is measured in them selling 1 extra big mac. For every person who crawls out of poverty like you did, there are thousands who stay there indefinitely. We live in America, not a 3rd world hellhole, and our cost of living reflects that. I doubt there is anything you can say, that'll make me agree that someone living in New York City, should be allowed to be paid $3 an hour

by vaksel 16y ago

lionhearted 16y ago

I'll answer this comment, but before I do, can I ask a question? - What's your goal behind this discussion? Are you trying to learn, debate, convince me, convince other people, just pass the time? I posted originally to share my perspective with people, and then I try to respond to comments and inquiries to get a good discussion going. Because I can answer your comment seriously if you're open-minded and think there's a chance your views will evolve. Likewise, I'm open to my views evolving if I see something good. Otherwise, if it's for third parties or just entertainment, I'll probably break from this comment thread since I've said the basics of what I think and probably not so many people are following it any more. Anyways... > Ok let's take that $1,160 a month..and cut off a 1/3 for taxes, unemlpoyment insurance, social security etc. You are stuck with $765 a month. Well, three points. First, you pay a bit less than that in taxes at the low end. Second, I already said I'm not in favor of this kind of forced law and I'm not in favor of an income tax, uninsurance, or social security at all. Third, if you are paying taxes that high, you're probably funding benefits that you can get. So you're either living on $765 after taxes but then you get government benefits, or most of $1160 with lower taxes. But let's say that's roughly a wash and your real pay in cash and/or benefits is $1000 per month. I did a quick search in the Chicago Craigslist just to pick a random big city. There's quite a few roommates/shared bedrooms in the $400 to $500 per month range. If you look, I'm sure you can find cheaper. I was in Hong Kong two months ago. You can pay $15/night for very small private room/shared bathroom in a cheap place on Kowloon. An all you can ride train pass is between $70 and $120 in most large cities. So we're at $500 now for rent and transport in a city. You can eat oatmeal and rice and beans as your staples, then mix in a little tuna fish, chicken, and fruit and vegetables. Oatmeal and rice beans are so cheap they're basically free, you're looking at $20 to $30 the entire month total for 60 meals. Go crazy and say $5 worth of protein, fruits, and vegetables per day and your food budget is $170. You drink tap water which is almost free, instant coffee will run you $10 to $20 for the month. So that's under $200. If you cook with people, you can eat better food for the same prices. Buy whatever's on sale for meal, fruit, and vegetables, in Los Angeles last year I was sometimes able to get a medium sized pack of Strawberries for $2 at Ralph's when they'd shipped too many. Really, anyone who doesn't think $1000/month is livable in the USA has been incredibly blessed. Plenty of immigrants and people working their way up live on much less. You share space with multiple people, maybe you only get 1/4th of a large bedroom with three other roommates and share one bathroom and a small kitchen. You cook most of your meals and don't eat out much. You take public transit, walk, or a bicycle. It's not glamorous, it's not awesome, it's not fun, but it's doable. And again, the goal isn't to stay in a low wage job forever, we're doing all this math with a 40 hour work week, which is plenty of time to look for other opportunities, train yourself, etc. As for me when I lived poor - I dropped out of high school and left home at 16, and never took a dime in cash from my parents since leaving home. Not a single dime. So the mommy and daddy comment isn't quite accurate. Ah, I was about to share a story about what life was like back then, but it'd take a while to type. It's not awesome, but you survive, grow, do what you can to improve, and you make it. But I'll ask if you don't mind answering: what's your objective here? Are you open to changing your mind on this if I give reasonable, well thought answers to your questions? I don't mind spending the time on this if something positive could come of it.

vaksel 16y ago
just having a discussion. Technically you pay less in taxes on the low end, but those taxes get taken out every two weeks, you just get a refund at the end of the year. It doesn't really matter what you are in favor of, the taxes will still be taken out of your paycheck. Of course you get things in exchange for your taxes. It's nice to say "well in the perfect world you could live on X", but we don't live in a perfect world. That's why I'm no longer a liberterian. Fine let's say you have $1,000 per month in cash. And fine, let's say you find a roommate deal at $450 a month.(btw once again, don't bring up hong kong or other countries, we are talking about you wanting to eliminate American minimum wage). Oh and let's not forget the $450 deals are fairly rare, so if millions of people start getting paid below minimum wage, those few good deals will be snagged up quickly. Anyways that leaves $550. Minus your $70 for the train pass, $480. The food issue is a good one. The $200 you spend, gets you just enough not to starve to death. Do you think 40 hours of labor shouldn't be enough to avoid not starving? So we are down to $280 a month. But have you forgotten something? The water bill? The gas bill? The electricity bill? The phone bill? What about all those other expenses? Like health insurance, replacement clothing, etc? And of course the goal is to get a better paying job. But by not having a minimum wage, you have wage depression. When you can pay entry level slaves $3 an hour, you can pay the guy with 6 years experience $5 an hour. And what kind of mobility do you think someone working at MickeyDs have? The goal here, is for you to realize, that there needs to be a living wage. Where working 40 hours a week, should be enough to make ends meet. How about the ideal of the 50s? Where you could work 40 hours a week in an entry level job, and could afford a house with white picket fence, a car, and basic luxuries and could support your family? Your whole argument is based around a young, single, healthy guy, going through a rough patch. Not the situation, that the minimum wage laws were created for. What's with this idea that the people should be ground down into the dirt? We already have 39.1 million people in poverty in United States, why do you think we need to increase that number? The difference between $7 an hour and $3 an hour for Mickey Ds, is measured in them selling 1 extra big mac. For every person who crawls out of poverty like you did, there are thousands who stay there indefinitely. We live in America, not a 3rd world hellhole, and our cost of living reflects that. I doubt there is anything you can say, that'll make me agree that someone living in New York City, should be allowed to be paid $3 an hour