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Furthermore, the semantics of Ruby are not unusual at all. Being a scripting language in a class with Python and many others, Ruby basically competes on syntax

• vidarh 10y ago
  > Furthermore, the semantics of Ruby are not unusual at all. Depends on what you consider "unusual". It's not unusual if you're used to Smalltalk, Self or Lisp, with Smalltalk being it's largest semantic influence. Given how niche they are, there are plenty of areas that are "unusual" to a lot of people. > Which is a loss, and a bit ridiculous as sufficiently different semantics require different, unfamiliar, "scary" syntax. Except they usually don't. There are aspects of this with the Lisp family, where homoiconicity is important, that makes different syntax harder, but even there s-expressions was not the originally intended syntax, and "modern" variations show that there is room for other variants even with that property. Heck, my Ruby compiler uses s-expressions as an internal representation (that you can "escape into" from source - it's used to implement low level details). EDIT: You keep falling in two traps: One is to assume that rejecting a language means rejecting the lessons in semantics it brings. Ruby is proof that this is not true - it's a collage of ideas taken from other languages, and predominantly from Smalltalk, another language where syntax is one of the things people balk at. And it contains plenty of lessons from languages that went before - e.g. it has lambdas, it has continuations. It even has call/cc. It's not perfect - that's not the point at all - but it demonstrates that you can "lift" these ideas from other languages and package them in another syntax just fine. The other trap is to assume that because syntax is unimportant to you, it's unimportant to others, and we just can't be bothered. This is like being deaf and jumping to the conclusion that just because you do fine without hearing, everyone else should just ignore the extra signals they get from sound. To me the use of syntax signals intent, and give hints about semantics (when well done) and outline the model of a piece of code. It provides extra information that is lost if the syntax doesn't let me express it. To sacrifice would be like losing my hearing: I'd still be able to function, but why in the world would I willingly give that up? If there was something that offered sufficiently compelling semantics advances, I might. This is one of the reasons I've spent thousands of hours learning additional languages. But here's the thing: Of all the several dozens languages I've spent time on, very few have been all that different when it comes down to it, and especially modern languages are increasingly borrowing most of the important semantic concepts. Most of the semantic concepts that have been "left behind" have been left behind for a reason (consider INTERCAL's wonderful "COME FROM"; an early example of support for aspect-oriented programming) This leaves syntax as a much more important differentiator for most than you might think. You've written off Ruby as "not that unusual" on the basis of syntax, while e.g. not considering that Ruby's main lineage are niche languaes like Smalltalk. That Ruby doesn't seem all that unusual is a testament to syntax. E.g. a concept like being able to execute code in a class definition (not just being able - even "def" is conceptually just syntactic sugar; you can write Ruby code using just the method call define_method instead) is something that seriously messes with peoples mind. That 'require' in most peoples code is not a keyword but a method call that has in most cases been overridden by either rubygems or bundler is something most people aren't even aware of. It's not that these concepts are "unusual" in the sense that they're not there in other well known languages. Ruby certainly isn't another Befunge or False or Aardappel [1]. These concepts certainly are present elsewhere - this is part of Ruby's Smalltalk heritage. But they're not what most developers are used to. Ruby has brought those concepts into the mainstream in a way languages like Smalltalk never managed. That Ruby is not "unusual" is a feature, not a bug. [1] http://strlen.com/aardappel-language http://strlen.com/aardappel-language
  • inimino 10y ago
    You fell into a trap yourself! Did I say somewhere that syntax is unimportant to me? I am as particular about syntax as anyone you are likely to find. What I actually am saying is that missing out on the good things a language has to offer because of an inability to get over your dislike of the syntax is a weakness. If you have no taste, there is nothing to get over. That's not what I'm saying. Yes, yes, I know how you "suffer". That's something you can get over. I don't know your goals--if you program only to satisfy your own creative urges then it doesn't matter how you choose a language. Assuming you work on things that other people also work on, then there is a cost to rejecting a language only because of syntax. For example, if you are doing some work in an area where everyone is using Python numeric libraries, and you refuse to use Python because of fussiness about syntax, then you can't collaborate with those people. There's no good reason for that. Reasonable people should be able to see when certain choices are arbitrary, and get over their attachment to arbitrary choices when it gets in the way of more important things, like collaboration. Failure to do what I just described is endemic among programmers, to our shame.