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As discussed on the previous stories here: FoxConn has an extremely good suicide rate compared to the rest of China! By a big margin (I recall about 60%). This

by ErrantX 16y ago

As discussed on the previous stories here: FoxConn has an extremely good suicide rate compared to the rest of China! By a big margin (I recall about 60%). This sounds very much like them trying to react to the bad press (I will actually say to the unfairly bad press) r.e. suicides at the factory. Signing a letter promising not to commit suicide possibly has a positive effect - so I can't disagree with it in general. EDIT: the bit about being institutionalised might be a little far; offering medical care is definitely a good thing, any for of enforced sectioning is too far though. (that's not to say conditions are good there.. I really don't know because none of these articles have gone past the sensational.. I suspect no worse than the rest of China - and so a general improvement would be good)

jacquesm 16y ago
'the rest of China' is a bad thing to compare foxconn with, you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. The economic situation in China has a huge variation from location to location so it may very well be that compared to the local average foxconn is either much worse or much better. Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions.
- _delirium 16y ago
  I agree on the last point overall, but you still have to make some subjective judgment of the absolute rate. Foxconn appears to have had 9 suicide outs of 480,000 workers. Is that high, in an absolute sense? It doesn't actually seem that high to me: 1 out of every 50,000. Unless I have some sort of relative sense that that's abnormally high, it seems "really low" to me.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    9 suicides in five months, and two more attempts. Not overall. So that's roughly 25 people annually, I'm still not sure if that's high or not but it certainly seems worth looking in to and taking it serious. China is about 14 per 100,000 average, so you'd expect about 70 per year, if foxconn overall is 25 and there are no 'non-work related suicides' then they're better, if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      > if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious. if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious. Some of the previous articles have been more explicit - this does refer to all suicides amongst the employee pool (i.e. not just those occurring actually at work).
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        Ah ok, that changes matters considerably, then I'll try to dig up a reference to that. It really needs that context.
        ErrantX 16y ago
        Hmm, the articles today now seem to suggest that it is at the factory. Which does, possibly, cause a different slant - I'm not sure if it is just the wording or... I can't find the article previously that indicated this was an overall rate. So you might be right. Although it's worth considering that this "25" could be 25 of the 70 average and so the actual rate is no higher - the major problem, I guess, is that we only have the stats people want us to know...
        _delirium 16y ago
        Mixture of "stats people want us to know" and "stats you can get" I think-- in China, as in lots of countries, getting accurate statistics on home suicides is tough, because of the stigma attached to it and relative ease of reporting it as something else.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  > Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions. Hmm, I'm not sure I follow the logic. Clearly any suicide rate is bad; and things should be done to combat it. But the fact is they employ 480,000 people and, so, you are going to see a larger number of suicides compared to someone who employs 48,000! > you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. Absolutely; can't find any information though. Which sucks.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    The logic is that it is 25 work related suicides per that number of employees, I'm assuming that it is not exactly the total number of suicides for the whole company, just the ones that are directly related to the work conditions. If someone jumps off a bridge because they got dumped by their significant other I highly doubt it would be tallied amongst these.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      > just the ones that are directly related to the work conditions. Yeh, I now see what you mean. As I said lower down - previous articles have explicitly said this is an overall figure.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        This one in particular stands out as one that may be pretty directly related to the workplace: http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/news-mobile-wireless/unbearable-interrogation-linked-to-apple-iphone-contractor-suicide-1448 http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/news-mobile-wireless/unbea... It refers to suicide after 'unbearable interrogation techniques'.
- hugh3 16y ago
  The other thing is that suicides are non-Poissonian -- they occur somewhat more clumpily in time than you'd expect from pure randomness. A high-profile suicide tends to inspire other borderline-suicidal people to go through with it. A high-profile rash of suicides, then, could really gain some momentum. If suicides at the factory are getting a lot of attention then they're right to act against it even if it isn't a higher-than-usual rate.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Yes, they're called 'suicide clusters'.
jhancock 16y ago
I think we're misleading ourselves to compare suicide stats and debate acceptable/normal levels. Its the wrong conversation and FoxConn is enjoining the thread with this anti-suicide contract. Possibly they think they really are trying to help and also address the bad PR. The root of a factory worker's problems is low wages and no way out. On the other side of the value chain, the root is consumers spending their money with little understanding of how their dollars effect the lives of people on the other side of the world. The "exposes" on FoxConn are sensational and poorly written but at least we are having this conversation now as a result. FoxConn may be at the top of the curve in employee treatment compared to other factories and its still a life constricting hellhole to many/most.

by ErrantX 16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago

'the rest of China' is a bad thing to compare foxconn with, you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. The economic situation in China has a huge variation from location to location so it may very well be that compared to the local average foxconn is either much worse or much better. Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions.

_delirium 16y ago
I agree on the last point overall, but you still have to make some subjective judgment of the absolute rate. Foxconn appears to have had 9 suicide outs of 480,000 workers. Is that high, in an absolute sense? It doesn't actually seem that high to me: 1 out of every 50,000. Unless I have some sort of relative sense that that's abnormally high, it seems "really low" to me.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  9 suicides in five months, and two more attempts. Not overall. So that's roughly 25 people annually, I'm still not sure if that's high or not but it certainly seems worth looking in to and taking it serious. China is about 14 per 100,000 average, so you'd expect about 70 per year, if foxconn overall is 25 and there are no 'non-work related suicides' then they're better, if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    > if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious. if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious. Some of the previous articles have been more explicit - this does refer to all suicides amongst the employee pool (i.e. not just those occurring actually at work).
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Ah ok, that changes matters considerably, then I'll try to dig up a reference to that. It really needs that context.
      - ErrantX 16y ago
        Hmm, the articles today now seem to suggest that it is at the factory. Which does, possibly, cause a different slant - I'm not sure if it is just the wording or... I can't find the article previously that indicated this was an overall rate. So you might be right. Although it's worth considering that this "25" could be 25 of the 70 average and so the actual rate is no higher - the major problem, I guess, is that we only have the stats people want us to know...
        _delirium 16y ago
        Mixture of "stats people want us to know" and "stats you can get" I think-- in China, as in lots of countries, getting accurate statistics on home suicides is tough, because of the stigma attached to it and relative ease of reporting it as something else.
ErrantX 16y ago
> Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions. Hmm, I'm not sure I follow the logic. Clearly any suicide rate is bad; and things should be done to combat it. But the fact is they employ 480,000 people and, so, you are going to see a larger number of suicides compared to someone who employs 48,000! > you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. Absolutely; can't find any information though. Which sucks.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  The logic is that it is 25 work related suicides per that number of employees, I'm assuming that it is not exactly the total number of suicides for the whole company, just the ones that are directly related to the work conditions. If someone jumps off a bridge because they got dumped by their significant other I highly doubt it would be tallied amongst these.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    > just the ones that are directly related to the work conditions. Yeh, I now see what you mean. As I said lower down - previous articles have explicitly said this is an overall figure.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      This one in particular stands out as one that may be pretty directly related to the workplace: http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/news-mobile-wireless/unbearable-interrogation-linked-to-apple-iphone-contractor-suicide-1448 http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/news-mobile-wireless/unbea... It refers to suicide after 'unbearable interrogation techniques'.
hugh3 16y ago
The other thing is that suicides are non-Poissonian -- they occur somewhat more clumpily in time than you'd expect from pure randomness. A high-profile suicide tends to inspire other borderline-suicidal people to go through with it. A high-profile rash of suicides, then, could really gain some momentum. If suicides at the factory are getting a lot of attention then they're right to act against it even if it isn't a higher-than-usual rate.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Yes, they're called 'suicide clusters'.

jhancock 16y ago

I think we're misleading ourselves to compare suicide stats and debate acceptable/normal levels. Its the wrong conversation and FoxConn is enjoining the thread with this anti-suicide contract. Possibly they think they really are trying to help and also address the bad PR. The root of a factory worker's problems is low wages and no way out. On the other side of the value chain, the root is consumers spending their money with little understanding of how their dollars effect the lives of people on the other side of the world. The "exposes" on FoxConn are sensational and poorly written but at least we are having this conversation now as a result. FoxConn may be at the top of the curve in employee treatment compared to other factories and its still a life constricting hellhole to many/most.