8 ms·

>So, like creating a full blown new programming language (Swift)? Byproduct of Apple's work on mobile. > Or a full new filesystem (AFS)? Byproduct of Apple's

by owenwil 10y ago

>So, like creating a full blown new programming language (Swift)? Byproduct of Apple's work on mobile. > Or a full new filesystem (AFS)? Byproduct of Apple's work on mobile. > Siri on the desktop? Byproduct of mobile again! (By the way, ask Siri on Mac to set an alarm or interact with homekit!) But, I take your point. I tried to mostly detail Apple's lack of attention for developers, but perhaps missed the emphasis on that there in the post. Microsoft is really trying with developers and it's readily apparent.

DannyBee 10y ago
"Byproduct of mobile." If you need evidence: Swift appeared in IOS first and still is not great on the desktop at all. APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017 Siri on the desktop is mostly useless, as said here.
- owenwil 10y ago
  Right - that's simply a result of what I say in the post about Apple focusing on iOS first, then letting the byproduct of that filter down into OS X. That's a end-result of the Mac team being merged into the iOS team. Maybe it's not bad, but it just means slower overall progress.
  - comex 10y ago
    For APFS, I don't buy that it has anything to do with prioritizing one operating system or the other. APFS wasn't ready when Sierra was released, which is why it was included as a beta with limited functionality. It seems to be ready now, so it will be included in the next version of iOS (10.3), which is still in beta, and presumably the next major release of macOS. The only difference is that it's being released in a minor update to iOS but will probably wait for a major update to macOS. But that makes sense, because macOS allows the user to customize partitions and filesystems, and allows running other operating systems - including Boot Camp, which Apple itself must provide drivers for, and Linux, which is waiting on Apple releasing documentation for their filesystem, as they have promised to do. By contrast, iOS has the same partition layout on every single device and no cross-OS compatibility concerns. Thus APFS on macOS requires more work and has greater risk of failure. For both reasons, regardless of Apple's priorities, it would be logical to start with iOS. Even if Apple did add stable APFS support to a minor macOS update, they probably want to auto-convert users to APFS eventually, but doing so in a minor update would definitely piss off technical users; they could make it opt-in to start with, but it's easier to just wait. The next version of macOS is only a few months away; really not a big deal. (I agree that Apple seems to be prioritizing iOS in some areas; I just don't think APFS is one of them.)
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Swift appeared in IOS first Which makes perfect sense. We talk to our phones all the time anyway, and hands-free is crucial. For desktop, not so much. >APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017 Which makes perfect sense. A constrained environment without an exposed filesystem like iOS is easier to convert to a new FS. A full blown desktop OS not so much. That's why it needs much more testing and development to deliver the latter. But they ARE doing this testing and development. (Btw, APFS is not "the default in iOS" yet. It will be when 10.3 is released -- it is still in beta atm).
  - addicted 10y ago
    I agree it makes sense. But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out. I mean, Siri is the biggest feature Apple is touting for Sierra (http://www.apple.com/macos/sierra/ http://www.apple.com/macos/sierra/). And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out. Maybe they don't but I don't see them doing anything major on the iOS side either. Both platforms are quite mature by now anyway. (And Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps. Back in the day of the iPod and early MBPs etc, we cheered and waited anxiously for at best incremental changes -- now it has USB, now it has a different touch wheel, now it has a color screen, now it has wifi, now it does video, etc, year over year). >And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac. Yes, but people (and pundits) have been asking for it all the same to appear on the Mac anyway. And "talking to your computer" has been a thing from the times of 50's sci-fi stories even.
      - mdekkers 10y ago
        Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple
- madeofpalk 10y ago
  > APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS Well, it will be when that beta iOS is released. Besides, it makes sense for any sort of file system to be released first in such a limited manner.
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    Uh You realize they make more phones than desktops, right? By like a factor of 10 at least :) So the limited manner would be to release it to desktop?
- antfarm 10y ago
  In what sense is Swift not great on the desktop at all?
coldtea 10y ago
"Byproduct of mobile" doesn't really say much -- if anything. They support all three on Desktop systems, and they have features and APIs for both that only make sense on desktop systems too.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  It says a lot. The desktop isnt a phone. Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing. We were just fine without an app store. Just fine. I cant think of any of the "use this mobile feature on your desktop" that provides any real value...
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing. Siri, maybe, but there's nothing about an FS or a programming language like Swift that makes them a "phone feature". Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac). If anything Apple has adamantly refused to "force phone features into a desktop", and only ports stuff that makes sense -- that's sort of what Microsoft did, trying to merge e.g. tablet and desktop platforms in the same UI. >We were just fine without an app store. Just fine. Well, I'm much much better WITH an app store. Why wouldn't I want one? I might want some more features out of the Mac App Store (like the ability to demo an app) but I very much want to have it. And in no way is an app store a "mobile feature". App stores, (and app repos) existed way before they appeared on mobile phones, for one.
    - RileyKyeden 10y ago
      > Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac). Windows 10 has memory compression.
      - coldtea 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
marricks 10y ago
I think a pretty good summary is about 3 years ago Microsoft realized it had a couple of failed stratagies. 1) Catering to casual. Xbox one launch is probably the best example. They wanted to become the home media center so the entire launch and discussion was centered around sports streaming and social media. + Kinect. 2) Desperately trying to get a foothold in mobile. I think they realized people weren't going for either. Sony focusing on games and hardware killed it initially in sales, and still kind of does. Apple and Android had two corners of the market and MS could make a space for a third. They pivoted, targeted "professionals" and that's what you see in their approach for Xbox & PC. I think it's overall good, but saying Apple abandoned developer is sort of desparate fear mongering. Apple's strategy has always been pretty consistent, focus a lot of resources on making a good ecosystem. More recently it seems that's changed to "focus a lot of resources on making the best systems, and allow for a great ecosystem" with sponsoring third party monitors, and apple's home automation front. I think it's still a pretty good strategy, but with windows catching up with some "pro" features like their own premium desktops and laptops and adding in old features like "workspaces" people jump to say Apple "abandoned" them when they're still kind of sticking to the same successful strategy.
- nikdaheratik 10y ago
  If you'll look even further back in the Mac OS history, you'll see that they didn't really care about developers back then. Their entire focus was media and publishing with education on the side. I think it hurt them in the long run as they've always lagged behind with software and gaming and they only managed to make some headway in the PC market when they devoted resources towards making life easier for developers. I've always liked Mac OS better than Windows and even though Windows 10 is finally a usable system for development, I still don't trust Microsoft. I've been burned too many times with a promising system that then gets hobbled by ORMs adding their own Adware and other BS, by Microsoft caving into the bean counters and hobbling their systems in order to fight Chinese piracy, and by some C-suite managers bright idea that they should to waste resources on some "Synergy" play instead of just making the OS, and other products, better. At the core, you still have an ecosystem where the people making the computers can't make enough money on their own because Microsoft and the chip makers are squeezing them. Which makes for a sorry experience in the long run, even if Apple has its own problems.
Philipp__ 10y ago
By that logic, isn't iOS byproduct of OS X? I think people are overblowing the situation. I still rember Snow Leopard being best desktop OS I have ever used, but Sierra is still far far in front of Windows, and I realized that just when I sat in front of the computer with Windows 10 on it.
eksemplar 10y ago
I've been an enterprise developer on windows since XP (now on 10) and I don't think they've come very far in terms of what's going on with your dev pc. I still wouldn't want to use my dev machine for anything but development because of how much shit the .Net dev environment does to your system. Don't get me wrong, Azure is blazing amazing, and so is .NET in general, but when your enterprise IDE still hasn't found a way to function properly when the "documents" folder is on a network share, then you've got ways to go.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  This is the entire reason I do the majority of development in a VM. There needs to be installed so much software, that is deeply integrated into Windows, that I don't want any of it on my daily workhorse.
iaml 10y ago
WSL is also a byproduct of their failed attempt to run android apps on windows phone, and it's the most interesting thing they released recently at least for me.
zamalek 10y ago
> Microsoft is really trying with developers and it's readily apparent. Which has been their approach for a very long time - let's not forget that Ballmer speech. From what I have heard, Apple puts minimal effort into XCode; the iPhone lead dev here was throwing around all forms of cuss words trying to get CI set up.
- deminature 10y ago
  XCode is a sometimes excellent, sometimes shaky experience, still far ahead of Android Studio until the past 6 months or so. The API design of iOS is also still second to none, and part of the reason I continue to develop for Apple platforms. I use XCode Server for CI without issue, another team uses Jenkins happily. Apple's hardware can be fairly neglected, but the experience of being a developer in their ecosystem is still very pleasant overall.

by owenwil 10y ago

DannyBee 10y ago

"Byproduct of mobile." If you need evidence: Swift appeared in IOS first and still is not great on the desktop at all. APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017 Siri on the desktop is mostly useless, as said here.

owenwil 10y ago
Right - that's simply a result of what I say in the post about Apple focusing on iOS first, then letting the byproduct of that filter down into OS X. That's a end-result of the Mac team being merged into the iOS team. Maybe it's not bad, but it just means slower overall progress.
- comex 10y ago
  For APFS, I don't buy that it has anything to do with prioritizing one operating system or the other. APFS wasn't ready when Sierra was released, which is why it was included as a beta with limited functionality. It seems to be ready now, so it will be included in the next version of iOS (10.3), which is still in beta, and presumably the next major release of macOS. The only difference is that it's being released in a minor update to iOS but will probably wait for a major update to macOS. But that makes sense, because macOS allows the user to customize partitions and filesystems, and allows running other operating systems - including Boot Camp, which Apple itself must provide drivers for, and Linux, which is waiting on Apple releasing documentation for their filesystem, as they have promised to do. By contrast, iOS has the same partition layout on every single device and no cross-OS compatibility concerns. Thus APFS on macOS requires more work and has greater risk of failure. For both reasons, regardless of Apple's priorities, it would be logical to start with iOS. Even if Apple did add stable APFS support to a minor macOS update, they probably want to auto-convert users to APFS eventually, but doing so in a minor update would definitely piss off technical users; they could make it opt-in to start with, but it's easier to just wait. The next version of macOS is only a few months away; really not a big deal. (I agree that Apple seems to be prioritizing iOS in some areas; I just don't think APFS is one of them.)
coldtea 10y ago
>Swift appeared in IOS first Which makes perfect sense. We talk to our phones all the time anyway, and hands-free is crucial. For desktop, not so much. >APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS, and still in feature preview and pretty unusable in 10.12. It's "expected" it will be released for desktop in 2017 Which makes perfect sense. A constrained environment without an exposed filesystem like iOS is easier to convert to a new FS. A full blown desktop OS not so much. That's why it needs much more testing and development to deliver the latter. But they ARE doing this testing and development. (Btw, APFS is not "the default in iOS" yet. It will be when 10.3 is released -- it is still in beta atm).
- addicted 10y ago
  I agree it makes sense. But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out. I mean, Siri is the biggest feature Apple is touting for Sierra (http://www.apple.com/macos/sierra/ http://www.apple.com/macos/sierra/). And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >But it also indicates that Apple isn't really designing for the Mac as the author points out. Maybe they don't but I don't see them doing anything major on the iOS side either. Both platforms are quite mature by now anyway. (And Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps. Back in the day of the iPod and early MBPs etc, we cheered and waited anxiously for at best incremental changes -- now it has USB, now it has a different touch wheel, now it has a color screen, now it has wifi, now it does video, etc, year over year). >And as you point out, it's something that doesn't even make all that much sense on the Mac. Yes, but people (and pundits) have been asking for it all the same to appear on the Mac anyway. And "talking to your computer" has been a thing from the times of 50's sci-fi stories even.
    - mdekkers 10y ago
      Apple was never about revolutionary new designs and jumps. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple
madeofpalk 10y ago
> APFS (not AFS) is the default in IOS Well, it will be when that beta iOS is released. Besides, it makes sense for any sort of file system to be released first in such a limited manner.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  Uh You realize they make more phones than desktops, right? By like a factor of 10 at least :) So the limited manner would be to release it to desktop?
antfarm 10y ago
In what sense is Swift not great on the desktop at all?

coldtea 10y ago

"Byproduct of mobile" doesn't really say much -- if anything. They support all three on Desktop systems, and they have features and APIs for both that only make sense on desktop systems too.

jmcdiesel 10y ago
It says a lot. The desktop isnt a phone. Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing. We were just fine without an app store. Just fine. I cant think of any of the "use this mobile feature on your desktop" that provides any real value...
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Forcing phone features into a desktop and slowly turning the desktop into iOS is not a good thing. Siri, maybe, but there's nothing about an FS or a programming language like Swift that makes them a "phone feature". Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac). If anything Apple has adamantly refused to "force phone features into a desktop", and only ports stuff that makes sense -- that's sort of what Microsoft did, trying to merge e.g. tablet and desktop platforms in the same UI. >We were just fine without an app store. Just fine. Well, I'm much much better WITH an app store. Why wouldn't I want one? I might want some more features out of the Mac App Store (like the ability to demo an app) but I very much want to have it. And in no way is an app store a "mobile feature". App stores, (and app repos) existed way before they appeared on mobile phones, for one.
  - RileyKyeden 10y ago
    > Same for memory compression (which only exists on the Mac IIRC) and continuity (which would be useful even if it only worked from Mac to Mac). Windows 10 has memory compression.
    - coldtea 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

marricks 10y ago

I think a pretty good summary is about 3 years ago Microsoft realized it had a couple of failed stratagies. 1) Catering to casual. Xbox one launch is probably the best example. They wanted to become the home media center so the entire launch and discussion was centered around sports streaming and social media. + Kinect. 2) Desperately trying to get a foothold in mobile. I think they realized people weren't going for either. Sony focusing on games and hardware killed it initially in sales, and still kind of does. Apple and Android had two corners of the market and MS could make a space for a third. They pivoted, targeted "professionals" and that's what you see in their approach for Xbox & PC. I think it's overall good, but saying Apple abandoned developer is sort of desparate fear mongering. Apple's strategy has always been pretty consistent, focus a lot of resources on making a good ecosystem. More recently it seems that's changed to "focus a lot of resources on making the best systems, and allow for a great ecosystem" with sponsoring third party monitors, and apple's home automation front. I think it's still a pretty good strategy, but with windows catching up with some "pro" features like their own premium desktops and laptops and adding in old features like "workspaces" people jump to say Apple "abandoned" them when they're still kind of sticking to the same successful strategy.

nikdaheratik 10y ago
If you'll look even further back in the Mac OS history, you'll see that they didn't really care about developers back then. Their entire focus was media and publishing with education on the side. I think it hurt them in the long run as they've always lagged behind with software and gaming and they only managed to make some headway in the PC market when they devoted resources towards making life easier for developers. I've always liked Mac OS better than Windows and even though Windows 10 is finally a usable system for development, I still don't trust Microsoft. I've been burned too many times with a promising system that then gets hobbled by ORMs adding their own Adware and other BS, by Microsoft caving into the bean counters and hobbling their systems in order to fight Chinese piracy, and by some C-suite managers bright idea that they should to waste resources on some "Synergy" play instead of just making the OS, and other products, better. At the core, you still have an ecosystem where the people making the computers can't make enough money on their own because Microsoft and the chip makers are squeezing them. Which makes for a sorry experience in the long run, even if Apple has its own problems.

Philipp__ 10y ago

By that logic, isn't iOS byproduct of OS X? I think people are overblowing the situation. I still rember Snow Leopard being best desktop OS I have ever used, but Sierra is still far far in front of Windows, and I realized that just when I sat in front of the computer with Windows 10 on it.

eksemplar 10y ago

I've been an enterprise developer on windows since XP (now on 10) and I don't think they've come very far in terms of what's going on with your dev pc. I still wouldn't want to use my dev machine for anything but development because of how much shit the .Net dev environment does to your system. Don't get me wrong, Azure is blazing amazing, and so is .NET in general, but when your enterprise IDE still hasn't found a way to function properly when the "documents" folder is on a network share, then you've got ways to go.

hvidgaard 10y ago
This is the entire reason I do the majority of development in a VM. There needs to be installed so much software, that is deeply integrated into Windows, that I don't want any of it on my daily workhorse.

iaml 10y ago

WSL is also a byproduct of their failed attempt to run android apps on windows phone, and it's the most interesting thing they released recently at least for me.

zamalek 10y ago

> Microsoft is really trying with developers and it's readily apparent. Which has been their approach for a very long time - let's not forget that Ballmer speech. From what I have heard, Apple puts minimal effort into XCode; the iPhone lead dev here was throwing around all forms of cuss words trying to get CI set up.

deminature 10y ago
XCode is a sometimes excellent, sometimes shaky experience, still far ahead of Android Studio until the past 6 months or so. The API design of iOS is also still second to none, and part of the reason I continue to develop for Apple platforms. I use XCode Server for CI without issue, another team uses Jenkins happily. Apple's hardware can be fairly neglected, but the experience of being a developer in their ecosystem is still very pleasant overall.