5 ms·

"China and India, where many consumer products are manufactured, are the worst offenders." So instead of merely blaming and regulating, it is ultimately upon a

by haimau 10y ago

"China and India, where many consumer products are manufactured, are the worst offenders." So instead of merely blaming and regulating, it is ultimately upon all of us to change consumption behavior.

ebbv 10y ago
It's extremely hard for the US to regulate those places. It's true we can do things like raise tariffs on goods coming from those areas or something but that's unlikely to have the intended effect. On the other side China and India are both pursuing renewable energy faster than the US.
- kogepathic 10y ago
  > On the other side China and India are both pursuing renewable energy faster than the US. I was in Beijing last year for a layover. The pollution was so bad you couldn't see the runway from the terminal. It was so terrible you could even see it inside the terminal. I think the pollution absolutely terrible, and it needs to be addressed. But you know what? I'm even happier that the pollution is so blatantly terrible and visible. Why? Because if it wasn't so obvious, the populations of China and India wouldn't be demanding change, and the governments would be free to ignore the issue. The fact that the pollution in China and India is so bad is driving these countries to improve regulations and curtail their pollution much faster than the US had to in the 20th century. Pollution is terrible, but I'm really glad that the two most populated countries on earth are waking up and installing renewables at an unprecedented rate. It's not only improving their pollution situation, but economies of scale are making renewables cheaper for everyone.
  - bigbugbag 10y ago
    Except these two countries are quite an upscale from the late 19th to 20th century occidental air pollution issue, an upscale of one or two order of magnitude. Even if they both stopped every source of pollution instantly right now, the consequences would still last decades. Even if they do something, improving the pollution situation is not enough by a large margin, keep in mind the occident failed to fix their own air pollution issue to this day. Economies of scale may well worsen the situation further due to Jevons paradox, while most renewables are actually not renewables at all. The only way out is a radical global change including a large decrease in energy consumption and this will come when the massive overpopulation issue will fix itself through famine due to lack of oil to grow food "green revolution" style. There's not doubt that reality will catch up on us, it is just a matter of time as this is now inevitable. Our choice is between crashing full speed ahead in a wall of brick or trying to slow down to crash in a hopefully somewhat less dramatic manner.
    - chillacy 10y ago
      > an upscale of one or two order of magnitude I think you're underestimating how much polluting the west has been doing. After all, China got into the game only in the last maybe 20 years. As of 2011, the United States had released 28% of the world's total post-industrial revolution green house gasses, while China contributed 9%: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countries-responsible-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie... Now granted 2011 was 7 years ago, but just eyeballing, if the US had stopped all its emissions and China released its current rate of 9.6B tonnes each year, they'd have to emit for another 24 years before they caught up to the United State's emissions. That's not to say that China shouldn't clean up its emissions before they become the new #1 emitter, but we who live in the west have to do our part as well. This should also be concerning: The US has over twice the emissions per capita as China [1], and China is not yet done developing. Basically if all nations are aiming to develop into the united states, we're hosed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
  - kaybe 10y ago
    The pollution is going down atm. Don't get me wrong, it's still massive, but the trend has been reversed the last 2-3 years. (Talking to researchers, I don't know how far they're into publishing yet.)
- WalterSear 10y ago
  So you regulate demand locally.
  - vollmond 10y ago
    Like we have with drugs over the last half-century?
    - WalterSear 10y ago
      No. The two situations aren't comparable.
- jackcn 10y ago
  Part of the MO for TPP was to have America's trading partners conform to better environmental/safety/health regs, but any chance of that happening now is a pipe dream, let alone with either China or India. That being said, both countries are attempting to move rapidly away from fossil fuels and dirty industries as their burgeoning middle classes start to clamor for cleaner air.
gydfi 10y ago
Why change it at the consumer level when we can change it at the governmental level? Personally I think trade with China should be banned until the CCP is gone and democracy installed. I think trade with China is wrong, we are helping prop up an unelected, oppressive and illegitimate government which massacres its own people every time they call for democracy.
lend000 10y ago
I think a carbon tariff would be more realistic.
awinder 10y ago
The human race is going to need to evolve a bit, "going without" is not whats going to move us forward, figuring out how to work as a team is

by haimau 10y ago

"China and India, where many consumer products are manufactured, are the worst offenders." So instead of merely blaming and regulating, it is ultimately upon all of us to change consumption behavior.

ebbv 10y ago

It's extremely hard for the US to regulate those places. It's true we can do things like raise tariffs on goods coming from those areas or something but that's unlikely to have the intended effect. On the other side China and India are both pursuing renewable energy faster than the US.

kogepathic 10y ago
> On the other side China and India are both pursuing renewable energy faster than the US. I was in Beijing last year for a layover. The pollution was so bad you couldn't see the runway from the terminal. It was so terrible you could even see it inside the terminal. I think the pollution absolutely terrible, and it needs to be addressed. But you know what? I'm even happier that the pollution is so blatantly terrible and visible. Why? Because if it wasn't so obvious, the populations of China and India wouldn't be demanding change, and the governments would be free to ignore the issue. The fact that the pollution in China and India is so bad is driving these countries to improve regulations and curtail their pollution much faster than the US had to in the 20th century. Pollution is terrible, but I'm really glad that the two most populated countries on earth are waking up and installing renewables at an unprecedented rate. It's not only improving their pollution situation, but economies of scale are making renewables cheaper for everyone.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Except these two countries are quite an upscale from the late 19th to 20th century occidental air pollution issue, an upscale of one or two order of magnitude. Even if they both stopped every source of pollution instantly right now, the consequences would still last decades. Even if they do something, improving the pollution situation is not enough by a large margin, keep in mind the occident failed to fix their own air pollution issue to this day. Economies of scale may well worsen the situation further due to Jevons paradox, while most renewables are actually not renewables at all. The only way out is a radical global change including a large decrease in energy consumption and this will come when the massive overpopulation issue will fix itself through famine due to lack of oil to grow food "green revolution" style. There's not doubt that reality will catch up on us, it is just a matter of time as this is now inevitable. Our choice is between crashing full speed ahead in a wall of brick or trying to slow down to crash in a hopefully somewhat less dramatic manner.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    > an upscale of one or two order of magnitude I think you're underestimating how much polluting the west has been doing. After all, China got into the game only in the last maybe 20 years. As of 2011, the United States had released 28% of the world's total post-industrial revolution green house gasses, while China contributed 9%: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countries-responsible-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie... Now granted 2011 was 7 years ago, but just eyeballing, if the US had stopped all its emissions and China released its current rate of 9.6B tonnes each year, they'd have to emit for another 24 years before they caught up to the United State's emissions. That's not to say that China shouldn't clean up its emissions before they become the new #1 emitter, but we who live in the west have to do our part as well. This should also be concerning: The US has over twice the emissions per capita as China [1], and China is not yet done developing. Basically if all nations are aiming to develop into the united states, we're hosed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
- kaybe 10y ago
  The pollution is going down atm. Don't get me wrong, it's still massive, but the trend has been reversed the last 2-3 years. (Talking to researchers, I don't know how far they're into publishing yet.)
WalterSear 10y ago
So you regulate demand locally.
- vollmond 10y ago
  Like we have with drugs over the last half-century?
  - WalterSear 10y ago
    No. The two situations aren't comparable.
jackcn 10y ago
Part of the MO for TPP was to have America's trading partners conform to better environmental/safety/health regs, but any chance of that happening now is a pipe dream, let alone with either China or India. That being said, both countries are attempting to move rapidly away from fossil fuels and dirty industries as their burgeoning middle classes start to clamor for cleaner air.

gydfi 10y ago

Why change it at the consumer level when we can change it at the governmental level? Personally I think trade with China should be banned until the CCP is gone and democracy installed. I think trade with China is wrong, we are helping prop up an unelected, oppressive and illegitimate government which massacres its own people every time they call for democracy.

lend000 10y ago

I think a carbon tariff would be more realistic.

awinder 10y ago

The human race is going to need to evolve a bit, "going without" is not whats going to move us forward, figuring out how to work as a team is