4 ms·

Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across

Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across a variety of professions, that can make them highly marketable. These people aren't sitting at home watching TV because they lack education. They lack education for the same reason they are sitting at home, which is a much more complex topic, and not solved by simply making education even more accessible.

threatofrain 10y ago
I'd note, though, that most people can't really engage in self-directed study without structural motivations. After college, I think most people never read a textbook with such ferocity ever again. If you could just dump kids in front of Kahn Academy, life would be a lot easier.
- colmvp 10y ago
  Precisely. I'll also add there's huge benefits to live collaboration and apprenticeship, namely the ability to solve roadblocks with the help of others at a pace that's likely to be faster than working alone.
dukeluke 10y ago
You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. That's a bit messed up in my opinion. At a time of unparalleled wealth, all classes should be prospering. Also, I say "education" in quotes because today in an age where anyone can learn anything on the internet, a lack of degree does not mean a lack of education. A degree just shows you're willing to be compliant and follow an arbitrary education system for years just to improve your social status. It doesn't mean you're unable to learn.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  It sounds like to me randomdata is suggesting that personality or psychology is the 3rd missing variable, and that this psychological or personality trait leads to both joblessness and poor education.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    Suggesting that an entire block of the population doing poorly is simply because they are lazy is definitely a stretch. Everyone wants to feel like they are valued and are accomplishing something. Maybe they behave this way because the opportunities for the uneducated have been eradicated due to globalization and illegal immigration lowering the value of their work.
- randomdata 10y ago
  > You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. Where did you get that idea? As a farmer, I see endless work opportunities where the employers would just be happy to have someone show up. It seems most aren't willing to do the work though[1]. Which is fine. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Even more comfortable or 'higher status' work is also easily attainable with a bit of effort. However, none of this addresses the reason for the situation they are in, and I don't mean just because they are lazy like you insinuated in another comment. There are a number of reasons why some people struggle in the workplace and it is related to the same reasons why they struggle in school, or even learning on the internet for that matter. To pretend that we can just throw education at this problem is misguided. Lack of education isn't the problem. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
mbarq 10y ago
Not like you can sit at a public library's computer all day. You get timed about an hour a session and can only do three sessions a day and of course, if it there's a wait list, you have to wait. Also, many libraries nowadays have been turned into "after school" centers where there's a whole load of talking on the kids section of the library. There is a "quiet" zone, but people still whisper and really just straight out talk and you can very much hear the kids down the hall yelling and what not. Unless you live in a huge metro area with a very large library (even then, the computer limit is still there) and instead of loud kids you get loud bums who are told every 10 minutes to be quiet by the guard...a library isn't really a great place to "sit down and gain skills across a variety of professions". The only kinds of library where that romantic environment exists is at Universities, which many can only be accessed if you're a student there.
- ams6110 10y ago
  State university libraries are generally open to any resident of that state, student or not. Private universities might not be.
  - mbarq 10y ago
    I suppose, generally, but I go to a state university, you do need to swipe your active student ID card to enter the library through a turnstile. I've also attended many hackathons at other unis where turnstiles exist as well and you can't enter unless you're a student there. I mostly remember because of the pain it was to get clearance from security at those unis to be able to get out of the hackathon (at their libraries) and get back in; had to leave ID and take my visitor badge with me. I'm sure many state unis are open to residents of that state, but I know not all. To be honest, I prefer it to be that way for the same reason "actual" public libraries just aren't conducive for actually studying something that takes a lot concentration.
dandersh 10y ago
Education has never been more accessible, but unfortunately, at least here in the US, the education system does not nurture intellectual curiosity and promotes a submissive style of education where "the student" is dependent and subservient to "the teacher".

threatofrain 10y ago

I'd note, though, that most people can't really engage in self-directed study without structural motivations. After college, I think most people never read a textbook with such ferocity ever again. If you could just dump kids in front of Kahn Academy, life would be a lot easier.

colmvp 10y ago
Precisely. I'll also add there's huge benefits to live collaboration and apprenticeship, namely the ability to solve roadblocks with the help of others at a pace that's likely to be faster than working alone.

dukeluke 10y ago

You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. That's a bit messed up in my opinion. At a time of unparalleled wealth, all classes should be prospering. Also, I say "education" in quotes because today in an age where anyone can learn anything on the internet, a lack of degree does not mean a lack of education. A degree just shows you're willing to be compliant and follow an arbitrary education system for years just to improve your social status. It doesn't mean you're unable to learn.

threatofrain 10y ago
It sounds like to me randomdata is suggesting that personality or psychology is the 3rd missing variable, and that this psychological or personality trait leads to both joblessness and poor education.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  Suggesting that an entire block of the population doing poorly is simply because they are lazy is definitely a stretch. Everyone wants to feel like they are valued and are accomplishing something. Maybe they behave this way because the opportunities for the uneducated have been eradicated due to globalization and illegal immigration lowering the value of their work.
randomdata 10y ago
> You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. Where did you get that idea? As a farmer, I see endless work opportunities where the employers would just be happy to have someone show up. It seems most aren't willing to do the work though[1]. Which is fine. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Even more comfortable or 'higher status' work is also easily attainable with a bit of effort. However, none of this addresses the reason for the situation they are in, and I don't mean just because they are lazy like you insinuated in another comment. There are a number of reasons why some people struggle in the workplace and it is related to the same reasons why they struggle in school, or even learning on the internet for that matter. To pretend that we can just throw education at this problem is misguided. Lack of education isn't the problem. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

mbarq 10y ago

Not like you can sit at a public library's computer all day. You get timed about an hour a session and can only do three sessions a day and of course, if it there's a wait list, you have to wait. Also, many libraries nowadays have been turned into "after school" centers where there's a whole load of talking on the kids section of the library. There is a "quiet" zone, but people still whisper and really just straight out talk and you can very much hear the kids down the hall yelling and what not. Unless you live in a huge metro area with a very large library (even then, the computer limit is still there) and instead of loud kids you get loud bums who are told every 10 minutes to be quiet by the guard...a library isn't really a great place to "sit down and gain skills across a variety of professions". The only kinds of library where that romantic environment exists is at Universities, which many can only be accessed if you're a student there.

ams6110 10y ago
State university libraries are generally open to any resident of that state, student or not. Private universities might not be.
- mbarq 10y ago
  I suppose, generally, but I go to a state university, you do need to swipe your active student ID card to enter the library through a turnstile. I've also attended many hackathons at other unis where turnstiles exist as well and you can't enter unless you're a student there. I mostly remember because of the pain it was to get clearance from security at those unis to be able to get out of the hackathon (at their libraries) and get back in; had to leave ID and take my visitor badge with me. I'm sure many state unis are open to residents of that state, but I know not all. To be honest, I prefer it to be that way for the same reason "actual" public libraries just aren't conducive for actually studying something that takes a lot concentration.

dandersh 10y ago

Education has never been more accessible, but unfortunately, at least here in the US, the education system does not nurture intellectual curiosity and promotes a submissive style of education where "the student" is dependent and subservient to "the teacher".