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I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of

by csa 10y ago

I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of psychological health at this socio-economic status. Specifically, the people I know who fall into this category have one or more problems: 1. One (big) problem is that they often have an enabler -- that is, someone who is supporting these folks not working in some way. The fact that they don't do more chores or childcare supports this hypothesis. As the video said, sometimes it's the wife, sometimes it's the government via disability, sometimes it's family. 2. Another problem is issues with authority -- some of these folks are difficult or impossible to manage. Of course, sometimes it's because the company/manager is dysfunctional. Other times, the "issue" is that an employer sets healthy boundaries, and someone who does not have healthy boundaries will struggle to work within such an environment. 3. A third problem is simply drug use. There are a not small number of jobs that can be done by people with low education and low skills, but the employee must be drug-free or must be a "functional" drug user. There is definitely a chicken-egg question about drug use, but once drug use begins, getting and keeping a job becomes much more difficult. In the video, they say education is one of the keys to help the situation, and I am not convinced that this is true with the current state of education in the US. The education that needs to be done is more social/psychological in nature, imho. Until this happens, these dysfunctional people will continue to be dysfunctional. I don't want to pretend like this type of education is easy, but I think that it's closer to the solution.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
randomdata 10y ago
Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across a variety of professions, that can make them highly marketable. These people aren't sitting at home watching TV because they lack education. They lack education for the same reason they are sitting at home, which is a much more complex topic, and not solved by simply making education even more accessible.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  I'd note, though, that most people can't really engage in self-directed study without structural motivations. After college, I think most people never read a textbook with such ferocity ever again. If you could just dump kids in front of Kahn Academy, life would be a lot easier.
  - colmvp 10y ago
    Precisely. I'll also add there's huge benefits to live collaboration and apprenticeship, namely the ability to solve roadblocks with the help of others at a pace that's likely to be faster than working alone.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. That's a bit messed up in my opinion. At a time of unparalleled wealth, all classes should be prospering. Also, I say "education" in quotes because today in an age where anyone can learn anything on the internet, a lack of degree does not mean a lack of education. A degree just shows you're willing to be compliant and follow an arbitrary education system for years just to improve your social status. It doesn't mean you're unable to learn.
  - threatofrain 10y ago
    It sounds like to me randomdata is suggesting that personality or psychology is the 3rd missing variable, and that this psychological or personality trait leads to both joblessness and poor education.
    - dukeluke 10y ago
      Suggesting that an entire block of the population doing poorly is simply because they are lazy is definitely a stretch. Everyone wants to feel like they are valued and are accomplishing something. Maybe they behave this way because the opportunities for the uneducated have been eradicated due to globalization and illegal immigration lowering the value of their work.
xt00 10y ago
I grew up in a small town with some people like this and I think what you are observing is actually a hindsight view of the situation. The vast majority of the people were unable to get a job for some reason and then moved back home to ya know avoid starving. Then on your second point many of these people did not start out with a bad attitude but end up feeling like they constantly are struggling due to others treating them badly in jobs -- often due to a lack of skills or education. Then finally many of these people become depressed about their life situation and end up taking drugs to avoid dealing with how their life is not going in a good direction. So while the things you mention can likely be true, the behaviors you are talking about are very much related to people having difficulties in their 20s finding jobs and potentially getting laid off or fired and then struggling to get a new job. Basically my thought is that many of these people need some place that will really "help" them. Meaning that they need a type of job that will give them a good chance and allow them to make mistakes. Then help them get off drugs or other things that are hindering them. I really like Germany's trade school concept. There are tons of people who could do those jobs well and if you give them a shot to do that at a young age you give them a marketable skill. Some people just honestly don't do well in a super academic environment. I think the government would be very smart to say lets make it practically free to have people in various areas hard hit to do some trade skills programs. We as a society benefit if there are more plumbers and welders and carpenters.
- yowlingcat 10y ago
  I keep wondering about this. It's so obvious that trade schools are a good thing. I have nothing against code academies, but where is the similar kind of shiny kind of get people employed for the sake of society and do social good" for trade schools? Combine that with an income based repayment for tuition and you're cooking with gas.
  - xt00 10y ago
    Yea seriously, coding schools are not gonna happen for many people with not the best education.. I mean I know tons of smart people who don't want to write code even though they could do it. So the trade school thing can be economically explained very simply: Current situation in 2017: I pay a plumber to fix my pipes $800 for 2 hours of work. Ouch. 1000 other people in my area pay that same amount. $800,000 USD has been transferred from many different people rich or poor to the plumbers. Future, where we have more plumbers competing for the same job: Job costs $400. 1000 people pay only $400k to get the job done. So the people in that area have $400k more in their pockets to spend on other things. The now greater number of plumbers all make less money than the small number of plumbers that existed before. However, you have maybe 50 plumbers in an area instead of 25. So you have more people who are working a job that keeps them alive and busy and happy and far less likely to be doing drugs and likely they will have kids and get married. So basically the concept of asking a community to cover the cost of paying for trade schools for more people is I think extremely smart to do. And the people who get cheap education to do these trades generally are going to feel pretty happy about that as well -- like "hey people in my area care about people doing these jobs..., so I'm a valuable person in my community.."

by csa 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

randomdata 10y ago

Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across a variety of professions, that can make them highly marketable. These people aren't sitting at home watching TV because they lack education. They lack education for the same reason they are sitting at home, which is a much more complex topic, and not solved by simply making education even more accessible.

threatofrain 10y ago
I'd note, though, that most people can't really engage in self-directed study without structural motivations. After college, I think most people never read a textbook with such ferocity ever again. If you could just dump kids in front of Kahn Academy, life would be a lot easier.
- colmvp 10y ago
  Precisely. I'll also add there's huge benefits to live collaboration and apprenticeship, namely the ability to solve roadblocks with the help of others at a pace that's likely to be faster than working alone.
dukeluke 10y ago
You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. That's a bit messed up in my opinion. At a time of unparalleled wealth, all classes should be prospering. Also, I say "education" in quotes because today in an age where anyone can learn anything on the internet, a lack of degree does not mean a lack of education. A degree just shows you're willing to be compliant and follow an arbitrary education system for years just to improve your social status. It doesn't mean you're unable to learn.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  It sounds like to me randomdata is suggesting that personality or psychology is the 3rd missing variable, and that this psychological or personality trait leads to both joblessness and poor education.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    Suggesting that an entire block of the population doing poorly is simply because they are lazy is definitely a stretch. Everyone wants to feel like they are valued and are accomplishing something. Maybe they behave this way because the opportunities for the uneducated have been eradicated due to globalization and illegal immigration lowering the value of their work.

xt00 10y ago

I grew up in a small town with some people like this and I think what you are observing is actually a hindsight view of the situation. The vast majority of the people were unable to get a job for some reason and then moved back home to ya know avoid starving. Then on your second point many of these people did not start out with a bad attitude but end up feeling like they constantly are struggling due to others treating them badly in jobs -- often due to a lack of skills or education. Then finally many of these people become depressed about their life situation and end up taking drugs to avoid dealing with how their life is not going in a good direction. So while the things you mention can likely be true, the behaviors you are talking about are very much related to people having difficulties in their 20s finding jobs and potentially getting laid off or fired and then struggling to get a new job. Basically my thought is that many of these people need some place that will really "help" them. Meaning that they need a type of job that will give them a good chance and allow them to make mistakes. Then help them get off drugs or other things that are hindering them. I really like Germany's trade school concept. There are tons of people who could do those jobs well and if you give them a shot to do that at a young age you give them a marketable skill. Some people just honestly don't do well in a super academic environment. I think the government would be very smart to say lets make it practically free to have people in various areas hard hit to do some trade skills programs. We as a society benefit if there are more plumbers and welders and carpenters.

yowlingcat 10y ago
I keep wondering about this. It's so obvious that trade schools are a good thing. I have nothing against code academies, but where is the similar kind of shiny kind of get people employed for the sake of society and do social good" for trade schools? Combine that with an income based repayment for tuition and you're cooking with gas.
- xt00 10y ago
  Yea seriously, coding schools are not gonna happen for many people with not the best education.. I mean I know tons of smart people who don't want to write code even though they could do it. So the trade school thing can be economically explained very simply: Current situation in 2017: I pay a plumber to fix my pipes $800 for 2 hours of work. Ouch. 1000 other people in my area pay that same amount. $800,000 USD has been transferred from many different people rich or poor to the plumbers. Future, where we have more plumbers competing for the same job: Job costs $400. 1000 people pay only $400k to get the job done. So the people in that area have $400k more in their pockets to spend on other things. The now greater number of plumbers all make less money than the small number of plumbers that existed before. However, you have maybe 50 plumbers in an area instead of 25. So you have more people who are working a job that keeps them alive and busy and happy and far less likely to be doing drugs and likely they will have kids and get married. So basically the concept of asking a community to cover the cost of paying for trade schools for more people is I think extremely smart to do. And the people who get cheap education to do these trades generally are going to feel pretty happy about that as well -- like "hey people in my area care about people doing these jobs..., so I'm a valuable person in my community.."