4 ms·

I promise not to kill myself: Apple factory workers 'asked to sign pledge'

56 points by jsankey 16y ago

viraptor 16y ago
> "I promise never to hurt myself or others in an extreme manner," If only students were asked to sign those - we could've prevented so many shootings...
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  now they will need to think of un-extreme ways to hurt themselves and others. no nukes, conventional weapons only.
  - viraptor 16y ago
    Ah, like the rules of international conflicts / Geneva conventions? You can kill each other, but there needs to be order. Napalm - nay, bullets - yay, landmines - gray area. Civilians out of bounds, unless they try to help the wounded who carried weapons. We've got to be civilised after all... Yup - we should definitely make people sign stuff like that. Seriously though - since they've got the nets installed, soon we may have an extensive list of ways to kill yourself in the factory (without jumping out).
- wisty 16y ago
  Honor codes have shown to be effective in some cases. It's not a bad idea. (source, freakenomics). I guess they could do A/B testing ...
- eagleal 16y ago
  I take yours as a joke. But what's the point of the contract if you decide to suicide yourself? A contract isn't going to stop, it may have the counter effect as well. (This seems like an escape from some local investigations, or something like that, [edit] and I don't know how.)
czhiddy 16y ago
Unfortunately, these conditions seem to be the norm in China, regardless of the company or factory. Even if Apple took the nuclear option and dropped Foxconn as a manufacturer, would any rival companies (that had similar manufacturing capacity) treat their workers any better?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  After that? Probably the next one would. It'd be more effective though if Apple forced foxconn to improve conditions 'or else'.
  - crpatino 16y ago
    I do not think it is accurate. Apple is more of a low volume, high margin kind of business. Mind you, the high margin is for themselves. If at all, I guess the manufacturer may sell to Apple just above cost, just for the sake of the free publicity. But if you look at the bottom line, I doubt Apple is a Foxconn's make or break client.
manish 16y ago
It is one of partners of apple, they manufacture for hp and dell as well
Charuru 16y ago
Soo... are any of the protesters urging higher wages and lower hours or are we all too addicted to our cheap goods?
- _delirium 16y ago
  Would it really make that much of a difference in this case? I think Apple is getting more pressure than most because they essentially are selling a luxury good, where the cost spent on the Chinese manufacturing is not that high a percentage of the total retail sales cost, so they could afford to spend more and still turn a profit.
ErrantX 16y ago
As discussed on the previous stories here: FoxConn has an extremely good suicide rate compared to the rest of China! By a big margin (I recall about 60%). This sounds very much like them trying to react to the bad press (I will actually say to the unfairly bad press) r.e. suicides at the factory. Signing a letter promising not to commit suicide possibly has a positive effect - so I can't disagree with it in general. EDIT: the bit about being institutionalised might be a little far; offering medical care is definitely a good thing, any for of enforced sectioning is too far though. (that's not to say conditions are good there.. I really don't know because none of these articles have gone past the sensational.. I suspect no worse than the rest of China - and so a general improvement would be good)
- jacquesm 16y ago
  'the rest of China' is a bad thing to compare foxconn with, you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. The economic situation in China has a huge variation from location to location so it may very well be that compared to the local average foxconn is either much worse or much better. Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    I agree on the last point overall, but you still have to make some subjective judgment of the absolute rate. Foxconn appears to have had 9 suicide outs of 480,000 workers. Is that high, in an absolute sense? It doesn't actually seem that high to me: 1 out of every 50,000. Unless I have some sort of relative sense that that's abnormally high, it seems "really low" to me.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      9 suicides in five months, and two more attempts. Not overall. So that's roughly 25 people annually, I'm still not sure if that's high or not but it certainly seems worth looking in to and taking it serious. China is about 14 per 100,000 average, so you'd expect about 70 per year, if foxconn overall is 25 and there are no 'non-work related suicides' then they're better, if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious.
chappi42 16y ago
>how she worked 12-hours a day, six days a week. >"The atmosphere inside our workplaces is so tight and depressing that we're not allowed to speak to each other for 12 hours or you'll be reproached by your supervisors. Even with 8000 people applying for work daily, Apple, Dell and HP could and should pressure Foxconn to improve working conditions. Imho it's not about not-killing-myself but the daily "I feel like I have an empty life and work like a machine".
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
X-Istence 16y ago
Okay, so is anyone else bothered by this statement: > Apple manufacturer Foxconn was today taking extraordinary measures [...] Foxconn or Hon Hai makes products for many different companies and their parts end up in thousands of different products all over the world, yes they are one of the primary manufacturers for Apple products but Apple is not the only one that is having products manufactured there. I find that it is very disproportionate for a news article not to mention that other companies also do business with them thereby putting the spotlight just on Apple.
- thenduks 16y ago
  They did mention other clients: The Taiwanese technology giant, which also boasts Dell and Hewlett-Packard among its clients... But I agree with you. They're using Apple's high profile to make the news here, it seems. So much more than iPhones (or even Dell's) are made by Foxconn. Still, it's hard to fault them for trying to bring attention to the situation in any way possible.
  - X-Istence 16y ago
    Sure, but even the Hacker News title is specifically biased towards Apple. I understand why the media does it, and I can certainly sympathise with them wanting to get the story as much attention as possible but it just seems unfair to single out one company out of the masses just because anything mentioned about said company turns to gold, or something close to it with ad impressions. Morally I don't think it is fair reporting, especially since most people won't read past the first two or three paragraphs, let alone read all the way to the eighth paragraph to find out that Hon Hai (Foxconn) makes products for other corporations as well, thereby painting just Apple in a bad picture.
    - eagleal 16y ago
      I agree, but the point is, since school, you learn that headlines are focused to capture people attention. I'm not a journalist, but it appears to be one of the most important things in an article. (It's like advertising, you take the worst case of people's attention.) Maybe if the HN (edit) title was as you suggested, it wouldn't make the homepage.
cherring 16y ago
People who commit suicide are generally irrational, therefore this is absolutely stupid. How about improving conditions for workers and making them feel like if something goes wrong that their life is not over.
callahad 16y ago
Thom Holwerda over at OSNews wrote a short article that provides some much-needed perspective: http://www.osnews.com/story/23359/The_Foxconn_Suicides http://www.osnews.com/story/23359/The_Foxconn_Suicides
kierank 16y ago
This pledge not to kill oneself is as useless as the fine for jumping off the edge of the Niagara Falls.
- jarek 16y ago
  Off the original topic, but (ex-) Niagara local here: the fine isn't entirely useless. Some people survive the fall, so when one is noticed, you have to mobilize a rescue team to search for a potential survivor. More importantly, I am under the impression the fine is meant to deter (and recoup the expenses on) daredevils more than suicidal people; people going over in barrels and so on.
Aegean 16y ago
I don't understand people providing numbers about rates and how they differ. If there is suicide, it means something is wrong. It's simple as that. You don't need numbers. We are so used to providing statistics and being empirical but we need some humanity as well.
jarek 16y ago
Terrible article, as I've come to expect on this subject. "The 22-year-old's monthly salary, including overtime, was only 2000 yuan ($300) -- about the same as the US price of a 32GB iPhone." I mean -- really? Not only does the article fail to provide any sort of baseline such as simply comparing purchasing power of 2000 yuan in Hunan if not wages of comparable jobs in the area, that's the carrier-subsidized price of an iPhone, not the actual price.
holdenc 16y ago
How to tell you are applying for a bad job: you are asked to sign a letter promising not to kill yourself.
itistoday 16y ago
The article reads like an April fools joke: Roof patrols were also being arranged and nets installed around buildings to deter suicidal workers, it added. "If they jump, they'll fall into the safety nets, so their lives will be saved," a contractor told the channel. And the surprising bit: But there was no shortage of people trying to get through the factory gates. Around 8,000 people apply to work at the factory every day, Foxconn spokesman Liu Kun told the state-run China Daily newspaper.
pmiller2 16y ago
I agree with this guy (from the article): One Foxconn worker told the newspaper he refused to sign because the company was seeking the right to institutionalise employees. "If I bicker with my supervisor, will I be sent to a mental hospital?" the employee told the paper. There's no way in hell I'd sign an agreement that gave my employer the right to force me to go to the loony bin.
eplanit 16y ago
That's odd, because the agreement they want their consumers to sign says "I'd sooner kill myself than criticize Apple, Inc.". :-)
goatforce5 16y ago
CP24 (Toronto TV news station) was reporting a tenth death when I watched the news at lunch. AFP is reporting an 11th death: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWnjN18xPhrQL-tPcFPwKf6zDoCA http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWnjN18xP...

56 points by jsankey 16y ago

> "I promise never to hurt myself or others in an extreme manner," If only students were asked to sign those - we could've prevented so many shootings...

stretchwithme 16y ago
now they will need to think of un-extreme ways to hurt themselves and others. no nukes, conventional weapons only.
- viraptor 16y ago
  Ah, like the rules of international conflicts / Geneva conventions? You can kill each other, but there needs to be order. Napalm - nay, bullets - yay, landmines - gray area. Civilians out of bounds, unless they try to help the wounded who carried weapons. We've got to be civilised after all... Yup - we should definitely make people sign stuff like that. Seriously though - since they've got the nets installed, soon we may have an extensive list of ways to kill yourself in the factory (without jumping out).
wisty 16y ago
Honor codes have shown to be effective in some cases. It's not a bad idea. (source, freakenomics). I guess they could do A/B testing ...
eagleal 16y ago
I take yours as a joke. But what's the point of the contract if you decide to suicide yourself? A contract isn't going to stop, it may have the counter effect as well. (This seems like an escape from some local investigations, or something like that, [edit] and I don't know how.)

czhiddy 16y ago

Unfortunately, these conditions seem to be the norm in China, regardless of the company or factory. Even if Apple took the nuclear option and dropped Foxconn as a manufacturer, would any rival companies (that had similar manufacturing capacity) treat their workers any better?

jacquesm 16y ago
After that? Probably the next one would. It'd be more effective though if Apple forced foxconn to improve conditions 'or else'.
- crpatino 16y ago
  I do not think it is accurate. Apple is more of a low volume, high margin kind of business. Mind you, the high margin is for themselves. If at all, I guess the manufacturer may sell to Apple just above cost, just for the sake of the free publicity. But if you look at the bottom line, I doubt Apple is a Foxconn's make or break client.

manish 16y ago

It is one of partners of apple, they manufacture for hp and dell as well

Charuru 16y ago

Soo... are any of the protesters urging higher wages and lower hours or are we all too addicted to our cheap goods?

_delirium 16y ago
Would it really make that much of a difference in this case? I think Apple is getting more pressure than most because they essentially are selling a luxury good, where the cost spent on the Chinese manufacturing is not that high a percentage of the total retail sales cost, so they could afford to spend more and still turn a profit.

ErrantX 16y ago

As discussed on the previous stories here: FoxConn has an extremely good suicide rate compared to the rest of China! By a big margin (I recall about 60%). This sounds very much like them trying to react to the bad press (I will actually say to the unfairly bad press) r.e. suicides at the factory. Signing a letter promising not to commit suicide possibly has a positive effect - so I can't disagree with it in general. EDIT: the bit about being institutionalised might be a little far; offering medical care is definitely a good thing, any for of enforced sectioning is too far though. (that's not to say conditions are good there.. I really don't know because none of these articles have gone past the sensational.. I suspect no worse than the rest of China - and so a general improvement would be good)

jacquesm 16y ago
'the rest of China' is a bad thing to compare foxconn with, you probably should compare it with the other factories in the same town to get a baseline. The economic situation in China has a huge variation from location to location so it may very well be that compared to the local average foxconn is either much worse or much better. Either way, this number of suicides in a single company in an absolute sense is bad regardless, whatever the relationship to other companies or regions.
- _delirium 16y ago
  I agree on the last point overall, but you still have to make some subjective judgment of the absolute rate. Foxconn appears to have had 9 suicide outs of 480,000 workers. Is that high, in an absolute sense? It doesn't actually seem that high to me: 1 out of every 50,000. Unless I have some sort of relative sense that that's abnormally high, it seems "really low" to me.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    9 suicides in five months, and two more attempts. Not overall. So that's roughly 25 people annually, I'm still not sure if that's high or not but it certainly seems worth looking in to and taking it serious. China is about 14 per 100,000 average, so you'd expect about 70 per year, if foxconn overall is 25 and there are no 'non-work related suicides' then they're better, if those 25/year are over and beyond the 'normal' suicides that's a bit more serious.

chappi42 16y ago

>how she worked 12-hours a day, six days a week. >"The atmosphere inside our workplaces is so tight and depressing that we're not allowed to speak to each other for 12 hours or you'll be reproached by your supervisors. Even with 8000 people applying for work daily, Apple, Dell and HP could and should pressure Foxconn to improve working conditions. Imho it's not about not-killing-myself but the daily "I feel like I have an empty life and work like a machine".

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

X-Istence 16y ago

Okay, so is anyone else bothered by this statement: > Apple manufacturer Foxconn was today taking extraordinary measures [...] Foxconn or Hon Hai makes products for many different companies and their parts end up in thousands of different products all over the world, yes they are one of the primary manufacturers for Apple products but Apple is not the only one that is having products manufactured there. I find that it is very disproportionate for a news article not to mention that other companies also do business with them thereby putting the spotlight just on Apple.

thenduks 16y ago
They did mention other clients: The Taiwanese technology giant, which also boasts Dell and Hewlett-Packard among its clients... But I agree with you. They're using Apple's high profile to make the news here, it seems. So much more than iPhones (or even Dell's) are made by Foxconn. Still, it's hard to fault them for trying to bring attention to the situation in any way possible.
- X-Istence 16y ago
  Sure, but even the Hacker News title is specifically biased towards Apple. I understand why the media does it, and I can certainly sympathise with them wanting to get the story as much attention as possible but it just seems unfair to single out one company out of the masses just because anything mentioned about said company turns to gold, or something close to it with ad impressions. Morally I don't think it is fair reporting, especially since most people won't read past the first two or three paragraphs, let alone read all the way to the eighth paragraph to find out that Hon Hai (Foxconn) makes products for other corporations as well, thereby painting just Apple in a bad picture.
  - eagleal 16y ago
    I agree, but the point is, since school, you learn that headlines are focused to capture people attention. I'm not a journalist, but it appears to be one of the most important things in an article. (It's like advertising, you take the worst case of people's attention.) Maybe if the HN (edit) title was as you suggested, it wouldn't make the homepage.

cherring 16y ago

People who commit suicide are generally irrational, therefore this is absolutely stupid. How about improving conditions for workers and making them feel like if something goes wrong that their life is not over.

callahad 16y ago

Thom Holwerda over at OSNews wrote a short article that provides some much-needed perspective: http://www.osnews.com/story/23359/The_Foxconn_Suicides http://www.osnews.com/story/23359/The_Foxconn_Suicides

kierank 16y ago

This pledge not to kill oneself is as useless as the fine for jumping off the edge of the Niagara Falls.

jarek 16y ago
Off the original topic, but (ex-) Niagara local here: the fine isn't entirely useless. Some people survive the fall, so when one is noticed, you have to mobilize a rescue team to search for a potential survivor. More importantly, I am under the impression the fine is meant to deter (and recoup the expenses on) daredevils more than suicidal people; people going over in barrels and so on.

Aegean 16y ago

I don't understand people providing numbers about rates and how they differ. If there is suicide, it means something is wrong. It's simple as that. You don't need numbers. We are so used to providing statistics and being empirical but we need some humanity as well.

jarek 16y ago

Terrible article, as I've come to expect on this subject. "The 22-year-old's monthly salary, including overtime, was only 2000 yuan ($300) -- about the same as the US price of a 32GB iPhone." I mean -- really? Not only does the article fail to provide any sort of baseline such as simply comparing purchasing power of 2000 yuan in Hunan if not wages of comparable jobs in the area, that's the carrier-subsidized price of an iPhone, not the actual price.

holdenc 16y ago

How to tell you are applying for a bad job: you are asked to sign a letter promising not to kill yourself.

itistoday 16y ago

The article reads like an April fools joke: Roof patrols were also being arranged and nets installed around buildings to deter suicidal workers, it added. "If they jump, they'll fall into the safety nets, so their lives will be saved," a contractor told the channel. And the surprising bit: But there was no shortage of people trying to get through the factory gates. Around 8,000 people apply to work at the factory every day, Foxconn spokesman Liu Kun told the state-run China Daily newspaper.

pmiller2 16y ago

I agree with this guy (from the article): One Foxconn worker told the newspaper he refused to sign because the company was seeking the right to institutionalise employees. "If I bicker with my supervisor, will I be sent to a mental hospital?" the employee told the paper. There's no way in hell I'd sign an agreement that gave my employer the right to force me to go to the loony bin.

eplanit 16y ago

That's odd, because the agreement they want their consumers to sign says "I'd sooner kill myself than criticize Apple, Inc.". :-)

goatforce5 16y ago

CP24 (Toronto TV news station) was reporting a tenth death when I watched the news at lunch. AFP is reporting an 11th death: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWnjN18xPhrQL-tPcFPwKf6zDoCA http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWnjN18xP...