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Oh right, traditional gender roles. I thought this feminism was the advocation of equal social and political rights, but actually this is something else on top.

Oh right, traditional gender roles. I thought this feminism was the advocation of equal social and political rights, but actually this is something else on top. I seem to be an appallingly bad feminist. For me, it's about equal social and political rights, but it turns out it's really all about a whole lot of crazy stuff I don't understand. It's odd that the people who most loudly understand what feminism really is seem to be those opposed to it, and people who simply label themselves feminists (such as myself) end up mystified by where all this extra junk comes from. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps people aren't conflating advocation of equal social and political rights with a whole lot of other things, but it's generally not worth the conversation.

FabHK 10y ago
So have equal political and social rights been achieved yet? I'd assume that for political rights, the answer is yes. Not sure about social rights - could you elaborate?
- EliRivers 10y ago
  I think you're more than capable of digging up answers to that question yourself. I do apologise if you're genuine; you seem genuine, and your website certainly paints you as a reasonable person, but I've just had too many bad experiences in such discussions online that I no longer engage in them. I'm sure you can imagine the kind of thing. HN in particular seems to suffer from it; a disturbing sense of perceived victimhood in some that poisons their conversation.
  - emiliobumachar 10y ago
    The problem with finding examples ourselves is that we don't know what you meant by the terms you used. I, for one, would have some difficulty drawing the line between "social equality" and "other stuff on top", such as getting rid of traditional gender roles. (what I see as) the mainstream feminist position is that getting rid of traditional gender roles is essential to achieve equal social rights. It's not really equal if one can legally do a thing but everyone else will think it's innappropriate.
  - FabHK 10y ago
    Thanks for giving the benefit of the doubt. What you describe as "political rights" I can get fully behind, and it seems to me we're mostly there yet. "Social rights" I'm genuinely not sure what you mean, it seems reasonable. But the problem is that a lot of contemporary feminism seems to entail a lot more (with some of which I disagree), that's why it would be important to understand what is meant by "social rights" here. But fair enough, HN might not be the best place to discuss that in detail.
ratacat 10y ago
It's also worth pointing out that there is no "feminism", any more than there is one "american". There are as many meanings and iterative ideas that get labeled as feminism(by originators, and relative strangers) as there are different people in this country.

FabHK 10y ago

So have equal political and social rights been achieved yet? I'd assume that for political rights, the answer is yes. Not sure about social rights - could you elaborate?

EliRivers 10y ago
I think you're more than capable of digging up answers to that question yourself. I do apologise if you're genuine; you seem genuine, and your website certainly paints you as a reasonable person, but I've just had too many bad experiences in such discussions online that I no longer engage in them. I'm sure you can imagine the kind of thing. HN in particular seems to suffer from it; a disturbing sense of perceived victimhood in some that poisons their conversation.
- emiliobumachar 10y ago
  The problem with finding examples ourselves is that we don't know what you meant by the terms you used. I, for one, would have some difficulty drawing the line between "social equality" and "other stuff on top", such as getting rid of traditional gender roles. (what I see as) the mainstream feminist position is that getting rid of traditional gender roles is essential to achieve equal social rights. It's not really equal if one can legally do a thing but everyone else will think it's innappropriate.
- FabHK 10y ago
  Thanks for giving the benefit of the doubt. What you describe as "political rights" I can get fully behind, and it seems to me we're mostly there yet. "Social rights" I'm genuinely not sure what you mean, it seems reasonable. But the problem is that a lot of contemporary feminism seems to entail a lot more (with some of which I disagree), that's why it would be important to understand what is meant by "social rights" here. But fair enough, HN might not be the best place to discuss that in detail.

ratacat 10y ago

It's also worth pointing out that there is no "feminism", any more than there is one "american". There are as many meanings and iterative ideas that get labeled as feminism(by originators, and relative strangers) as there are different people in this country.