9 ms·
It sounds like manufacturing jobs left, so the men have no jobs, but the women still have jobs. Yes? Why won't the men compete for the jobs the women are getti
by imgabe 10y ago
It sounds like manufacturing jobs left, so the men have no jobs, but the women still have jobs. Yes?
Why won't the men compete for the jobs the women are getting?
Alternatively, the men could stay home and take care of the kids while the women work at the jobs they have, providing the stable two-parent household.
It seems like a large portion of the problem is tied up in men's idea of what constitutes a "manly" role. I don't mean to trivialize the difficulty of changing one's perspective, but changing diapers has to be a better option than dying from an Oxycontin overdose doesn't it?
- smhost 10y agoIt's not just a changing of one's perspective. It's the destruction of your whole identity. It feels incredibly jarring and like you're going insane. It's what people with personality "disorders" have to go through to "fix" themselves to fit society.
- ro_sharp 10y agoIs it just men's idea of a "man's role" that's a problem? The article seems to suggest women's preferences are also in play.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y agoNo matter how much feminism pretends otherwise, women are not keen to form lasting relationships with unemployed men. The reality on the ground is that many women consider extended unemployment a good-enough reason to end a marriage. A cynical but not unrealistic view is that humans tend to display loyalty to performed roles in relationships, not to individuals. If one individual stops performing their assigned role, the relationship ends.
- bigmanwalter 10y agoWomen who don't date men without a job are like men won't date a woman with a career. There's plenty of sexism on both sides.
- vocatus_gate 10y agoThe simple reality is that women do not respect men they have to provide for.
- EliRivers 10y agoFeminism, the advocation of equal social and political rights for women? What does that have to do with wanting to form lasting relationships with unemployed men?
- gotchange 10y agoBecause traditional gender roles dictate that the man in the relationship to be the breadwinner and being a bum doing nothing all day long wouldn't bode well for the woman in the relationship and given that feminists are against the status quo and traditional gender roles, it would look hypocritical that they disqualify a male suitor or partner for a romance or LT relationship based on their LT employment outlook or prospects.
- EliRivers 10y agoOh right, traditional gender roles. I thought this feminism was the advocation of equal social and political rights, but actually this is something else on top. I seem to be an appallingly bad feminist. For me, it's about equal social and political rights, but it turns out it's really all about a whole lot of crazy stuff I don't understand. It's odd that the people who most loudly understand what feminism really is seem to be those opposed to it, and people who simply label themselves feminists (such as myself) end up mystified by where all this extra junk comes from. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps people aren't conflating advocation of equal social and political rights with a whole lot of other things, but it's generally not worth the conversation.
- FabHK 10y agoSo have equal political and social rights been achieved yet? I'd assume that for political rights, the answer is yes. Not sure about social rights - could you elaborate?
- EliRivers 10y agoI think you're more than capable of digging up answers to that question yourself. I do apologise if you're genuine; you seem genuine, and your website certainly paints you as a reasonable person, but I've just had too many bad experiences in such discussions online that I no longer engage in them. I'm sure you can imagine the kind of thing. HN in particular seems to suffer from it; a disturbing sense of perceived victimhood in some that poisons their conversation.
- techdragon 10y agoIt's not even an issue of feminism or any other -ism. It's statistics and sociology. The last time I saw data on this, that was one of the most common causes.
- cmdrfred 10y agoI spoke to a divorce lawyer and as someone getting married in a few months I asked him what made marriages fail. He said that "It's mostly out of your control, when men come in it is mostly because their wife has been unfaithful. When women come in it is mostly because the man has lost his job." He also said that women seem to tolerate a great deal of infidelity on the part of the man up until the point where he stops earning. Sort of makes me glad that I met my fiancee while I was very poor, hopefully I set the bar rather low.
- derrickdirge 10y agoIf I knew my wife was considering divorcing me because because I lost my job, she wouldn't have to consider it any longer because I'd get the ball rolling. I suspect that there are deeper compatibility issues at play and major events like infidelity or job loss just act as catalysts for divorce.
- ams6110 10y agoIt's comforting to think that, but human nature is what it is. The typical woman would not immediately hire a divorce lawyer if her husband lost his job, but after a year or two she'd definitely be thinking she could do better (regardless of "fault").
- derrickdirge 10y agoI just think that's a very reductionist outlook. Humans are complicated. They have a lot of different needs that all have complex relationships with one another. Everyone experiences theses needs to varying degrees. If the needs that aren't adequately satisfied aren't outweighed by those that are, then it's reasonable for a person to start looking elsewhere to satisfy those needs. If my wife became a huge economic burden and wasn't contributing anything else to the relationship, then after a year or two I'd definitely be thinking I could do better.
- gotchange 10y agoGood point but there's nothing that precludes these assigned/expected roles in a LT relationship from changing or evolving in the future and for persons in the relationship to adapt to the new dynamics and realities.
- 77pt77 10y agoMany of these thing are deep atavistic behaviours well rooted in our evolutionary past. Very difficult to change in any meaningful way. You'll have outliers, but statistically it will be insignificant.
- xiphias 10y agoThis may be true now, but there's a trend of women accepting that a man earns less (or even sometimes doesn't have a job) as long as she doesn't yet want to have a baby, and the man looks hot. It's still all about supply and demand.
- tajen 10y agoSeriously, where can I find those? It seems to be an incredibly good and responsible attitude that would radically change the face the world, and, as a man, I'm dying to see such behavior happen. Does this trend have newspapers or forums where they share this positive attitude, so I can witness it and bump up my faith in my future?
- nmcfarl 10y agoIn my experience the baby has nothing to do with it - I know at least 3 women who have married that guy+, and now have a happy marriage and a kid. 1 of them even describes himself as a house husband with a side gig. Money isn't everything - particularly if you have lots of it. + well hot, smart, and having lived interesting lives by 35. That describes all 3 of them.
- booleandilemma 10y agoI read an article recently saying that women want men to be the breadwinners and they also want them to do the housework. We can't win. http://on.mktw.net/2li9AOT http://on.mktw.net/2li9AOT
- cd_cd 10y agoThe state has taken the place of the father as the primary bread-winner amongst the working class in the west. Prior to universal welfare most women would never have risked pregnancy outside a stable relationship because of the financial risks. There are no risks now, in fact there is actually an incentive single mothers get more money via state benefits that a single women with similar qualifications can earn in work.
- mjevans 10y agoWe can, through automation of /everything/. When there is no more work, in the house or out, all that is left is room for enlightenment or self-destruction.
- mos_basik 10y agoSome say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. I rather think the choices are self-destruction through violent conflict and self-destruction through lack of purpose/lethargy. But maybe that's only nation states. Or maybe I just have an unreasonably glum view of human nature.
- vostok 10y ago> No matter how much feminism pretends otherwise, women are not keen to form lasting relationships with unemployed men. I am a feminist man and I would not be keen to form a lasting relationship with an unemployed woman unless she was already wealthy.
- pasquinelli 10y agoMaybe, but a lot of shit heads are unemployed, and a lot of men who become unemployed become shit heads too. I read in a related article posted here that most prime aged men who've given up on the labor market aren't doing more child care, aren't doing more work around the house, are watching more TV and using alcohol and drugs more. So, basically, they're shit heads, either because they're out of work or with that cause and effect flipped. Edit, forgot to include the article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13795397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13795397
- pentae 10y agoCalling them shit heads for 'giving up' when they feel the deck is stacked against them is an oversimplification that avoids the issue. I think we're seeing in western culture what has been happening in Japan for the last 20 years. Herbivore men who simply evaluate the marketplace and decide giving up on working, women and a family and sticking to a life of video games is their best risk/reward option.
- ams6110 10y agoIf you recall Maslow's hierarchy from high-school psychology, you will understand that if non-working men still have shelter and food (and television and internet in many cases) they have their most fundamental needs met. Internet (porn, games) provides sexual satisfaction and a sense of winning at something, leaving little in the way of motivational pressure to do more. TV is there as catch-all distraction in case lingering guilt remains.
- mcguire 10y ago"...feminism pretends otherwise..." Source?
- 77pt77 10y ago> A cynical but not unrealistic view is that humans tend to display loyalty to performed roles in relationships, not to individuals. >If one individual stops performing their assigned role, the relationship ends. This is a very succinct way to describe reality. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoDid you ever hear of a man losing his job, or getting ill, then shortly after his wife leaving? It's quite common. It's very much both sex's perspective of role. Clichéd it may be, but there's a truth behind women preferring men with money, power or strength, or a combination of all.
- 0x445442 10y agoYeah, I've been saying this for 25 years... And that "Better Homes and Gardens" is just porn for females.
- adrienne 10y agoI promise that women actually look at real porn. BHG is a fun magazine sometimes but very many of us actually like looking at and/or reading about people actually fucking. If you think we don't, it's probably because the women in your life are lying to you.
- enraged_camel 10y agoIt's worth noting that job loss often results in depression, especially if finding another job isn't easy for the person. That also tends to be a reason for divorce.
- spooterspooter 10y agoThe depression results from failing to meet societal expectation. For example, he fears his wife and society at large thinks he's a bum now. Whether or not it's true, the depression is a result of the gender role.
- ntsplnkv3 10y ago> Did you ever hear of a man losing his job, or getting ill, then shortly after his wife leaving? It's quite common. Okay well how exactly "common" is it? > but there's a truth behind women preferring men with money, power or strength, or a combination of all. And men prefer attractive women...so what? The majority of these men are uneducated and unemployed. The article states many are HIGH SCHOOL drop outs. I'm a male. and I can tell you right now that I probably would not marry a female high school drop out. The problem to me is not the women. it's that boys are being left behind in school and more work needs to be done to educate and re-purpose males from unskilled drones to skilled or white collar workers.
- owebmaster 10y agoThe thing is, if men switch roles with women, they will not be picked by them. Men are not selected for their capacity to stay at home raising kids. This will not change. So while what makes women attractive to men is still working (more than ever! Just look at Instagram), the opposite isn't holding true anymore. What is the man women are looking for now? The one with hundreds of thousands of instagram followers and gorgeous pictures. They just wanna enjoy this same fake happiness online together. How long is this behavior be mainstream? I don't know. What comes next can be even worse.
- philipov 10y agoHumans are half-way between a tournament species and a pair-bonding species. Pair-bonding species certainly do select males for their ability to raise children. So to you I say, not all women!
- owebmaster 10y agoRaising children as in a man raising a children: providing, protecting, inspiring, been a role model. Not preparing food or babysitting. I agree with the final part, though: not all women. but biologically, the separation of roles is really well defined by past evolution. Perhaps we are heading in a different path now, and I guess that we'll be able to understand it only retrospectively.
- watwut 10y agoOtherwise said, you go to work and don't do anything child related at home - oh, except projecting the "I am awesome look at me" level of confidence. (How else do you 'inspire' when you refuse to spend time caring about them.) Frankly, I would not want such father for my children.
- owebmaster 10y agoProjected world != real world
- 10y ago
- facepalm 10y agoYou think it is men deciding not to marry, as in "no thanks, I'd rather be alone and unemployed than change diapers"? The article said it is women making the decision.
- ThomPete 10y agoWomen marry up not down.
- true_religion 10y agoOr sideways. There's this tendency to look at the lower classes of history and assume that since we too are not 'the rich' our behaviour should follow the same patterns of our class in the past. Today, the burden of household work has been cut to 1/10th of what it used to be, jobs are primarily intellectual, and education is paramount. The model to compare against is not the factory worker who was poor in the 1900s, and somehow due to a quirk of history became middle class in the 1950s. We ought to compare against the gentleman class---those who in the 1900s had maids, butlers, personal transportation, and intellectual jobs akin to what we do today: management, clerking, accountancy, licensed professions, etc. In those cases, people married sideways---intellectual women marrying men then helping to run the estate, daughters of merchants marrying other merchants and participating in the businesses, 'professional' socialites giving the entire clan a leg up by creating situations where networking was possible. This is the position we have inherited, and if we must take lessons from the past--we should take lessons from the right class.
- ThomPete 10y agoSure, point is just very rarely do women marry down.
- true_religion 10y agoSideways can include guys "of my class, but has fallen on hard-times". If a guy has some skills and all he really needs is a good network to help him find a job, that's fine too. There's a lot more sideways than there is 'down'. Technically its pretty hard to even get to know people of a lower class than you; rarely do you mingle.
- pokemongoaway 10y agoWait, you actually think that men are just so tied up in their gender role of "manliness" to enjoy the benefits of all of the reproductive success that low-paying jobs would afford them? So basically, you think men are given the following scenarios, but are choosing option A? A) Be a man, don't compete for women's jobs, drink beer instead of going to work, likely don't have a girlfriend or get laid because you don't have your finances in order... B) Be less of a man, compete for women's jobs, drink less beer and more wine at dinner parties, bite your tongue about the manliness and receive willing girlfriends and sexual partners... Anyone with any sense will laugh at this above false choice implicitly being promoted.
- ratacat 10y agoOr what about, examining the sense of bitterness in yourself, so that you can hold yourself in esteem at dinner parties regardless of your work, or what you happen to be drinking, and enjoy the personal connections that develops, even if they don't result in getting laid
- pokemongoaway 10y agoIt doesn't seem like you're understanding my comment. I don't hold myself in low esteem - and the false choice I mentioned is about the political discourse I see, not any actual person. I'm curious how you're able to establish that I'm a bitter person - this just seems ad hominem.
- pmorici 10y agoWomen are a lot more likely to go to college than men. [0] If you work in a factory, or planned to, you probably didn't go to college. For all the attention that is given to the lack of women in CS and Engineering the story in aggregate for all majors is that women outnumber men at colleges. It's been that way since 2000 and the trend has continued in the past 17 years. Its to the point where women outnumber men two to one at some large schools like UNC which are, for example, 60% female. [1] [0] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72 [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html
- douche 10y agoUnfortunately one of the results of that trend has been a lot of young women with less-than-useful degrees and mountains of student loan debt, working rather low-paying jobs. Which, to be brutally honest, makes them rather unattractive marriage partners, all other things being equal.
- hunglee2 10y agoVery important point. Unequal distribution in higher education will exacerbate the issues raised in this post. Unfortunately, we are looking at a near future where increasingly large percentage of unemployed people in the West will be young, sexually unsuccessful males.
- Spooky23 10y agoThe women don't have jobs either. But the state will provide a basic living if she has a child. It's a real mess everywhere.
- analog31 10y agoI haven't researched it deeply, but I wonder if it's better to assume that most two-parent families simply need two wage earners. Women tend to earn less than men, and might not be able to support kids plus a non employed husband on their income. Anecdotally, I know at least two families in my neighborhood, in which the father stays home with the kids. One of the moms is a physician, and the other is a business executive.
- tajen 10y ago> is tied up in men's idea of what constitutes a "manly" role. or in women's idea of what constitutes a "manly" role.
- cd_cd 10y agoThat is incredibly naive. Most women with a stay-at-home man become resentful and see them as a drain on their resources. They rarely succeed even if the man does the child raising household chores etc. Of course there are plenty of successful cases but they're in the minority. The reason why women don't marry men who don't earn more than them is because they want a successful guy, and by that they mean one that can earn more than them.
- mcguire 10y ago"Fewer men were working in manufacturing, which tended to mean their wages were lower than they had been when manufacturing had more of a presence in their area. And their wages were not significantly higher than women’s wages, which they had been during the heyday of manufacturing."
- zxcvvcxz 10y ago> Why won't the men compete for the jobs the women are getting? Because different people are suited to different jobs. Why didn't (and don't) women generally compete for manufacturing jobs? Because being a creative designer or HR professional or pre-school teacher or dental hygienist is something much preferred for certain types of people. Just look at the numbers [1]. Men not only don't want to do certain types of jobs, but in many cases can't - they're not well-suited for them. So even if/when they compete, they'll lose to less experienced women just entering the workforce. And vise-versa for other types of jobs with flipped genders. There are gender differences, plain and simple. You can argue why they exist, but for this discussion it's not as relevant at this point. I would like to note that the next "industrial wave" could affect women pretty hard as well: artificial intelligence. Recruiting and HR software, health-care robotics technologies, therapist chatbots, etc, could upend the female-dominated jobs listed in [1]. > Alternatively, the men could stay home and take care of the kids while the women work at the jobs they have, providing the stable two-parent household. Heh, I guess you haven't read many women's online dating profiles for what is acceptable in a mate and what isn't. You generally have to be higher up on the ladder (education, wealth, status, etc) to attract a woman for mating in the first place. How this manifests in data: 80% of guys are "below average"! [2] But who needs data, ask your grandfather if he could have "stayed home and taken care of the kids while the woman works" and he'd laugh at you and tell you to stop being a sissy. They may not have been able to explain it, but older generations have typically understood more about human nature than we give them credit for. [1] https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.ht... [2] https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e#.bnk0t8zaf https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0...
- mjevans 10y agoWhat 'average' is being highlighted? Is this an actual average, or a perceived one? Either way it sounds harsh and reminds me of that XKCD comic that concluded there was no way to win 'the game of love'.