5 ms·

> So what if the coal mines close down? Then people need to get a very good education to get one of the new jobs. Because the old jobs are dying out, those you

by c06n 10y ago

> So what if the coal mines close down? Then people need to get a very good education to get one of the new jobs. Because the old jobs are dying out, those you could get into with little education. The problem for men? That boys fare far worse in school than girls. This gets rarely addressed, e.g. the vast difference in reading comprehension. Boys then should just adapt? Well, whenever women seem to have a disadvantage (the whole MINT-discussion), society is supposed to fix it. Whenever men have problems, they remain their individual problems, and it's definitely their fault. No systemic forces here to be seen, move along everybody. A last comment about Germany: The lack of jobs for unskilled workers is definitely a huge problem. It makes it incredibly difficult to integrate everybody with a, shall we say, sub-par education. Almost half of the Turkish hailing migrants in Berlin are unemployed. 75 % of them did not graduate from secondary school.

JBiserkov 10y ago
>Almost half of the Turkish hailing migrants in Berlin are unemployed. 75 % of them did not graduate from secondary school. Wow, this is staggering. Do you remember where you saw those figures? (I don't doubt them, I just want to quote them in other discussions.)
- c06n 10y ago
  Unfortunately it's mainly German sources. I hope Google Translate can help here. They may also report different numbers, depending on who would be included in "Turkish migrants". Some address Turkish citizens (who have a work permit in Germany), some address German citizens of Turkish descent. The numbers I used are from this article: https://www.taz.de/!5176721/ https://www.taz.de/!5176721/ > 75 Prozent der Migranten türkischer Herkunft haben keinen Schulabschluss, fast jeder zweite ist arbeitslos. > 75 % of migrants of Turkish descent do not graduate from school, almost every second is unemployed. It's from 2008. Upon reflection I would expect that the situation is not as dire anymore, due to Germany's positive economic development. In any case, the trend in Germany hints towards a dire situation in any case (2009): http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-survey-shows-alarming-lack-of-integration-in-germany-a-603588.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-surv... > Some 30 percent of Turkish immigrants and their children don't have a school leaving certificate, and only 14 percent do their Abitur, as the degree from Germany's top-level high schools is called -- that's half the average of the German population. This article from 2016 references a report from the Federal Statistical Office of Germany. It states that over 40 % of the Turkish immigrants and their children only achieve a very basic school leaving certificate ("Hauptschulabschluss"). With this type of certificate, it is difficult in Germany to even get into a vocational school. Also, over 1/3 of the Turkish immigrants are poor: They earn less that 60 % of the mean income. https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article155700942/Warum-so-viele-Tuerken-in-Deutschland-scheitern.html https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article155700942/Warum-so-vie... https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Datenreport/Datenreport.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Datenreport/Datenre... Out of the 3 million Turkish migrants in Germany, 275,000 have received unemployment benefits in 2015. Only people actively seeking employment are eligible for those benefits. I could not find the absolute number for Germany for this population. But for the whole of Germany, we have 39 million workers, out of a population of over 80 million. The Turkish migrants tend to be younger, so a larger percentage does not belong to the workforce yet. I would therefore assume that the unemployment rate is around 20 % for Turkish migrants in Germany, and considerably higher in Berlin, due to the "special" economic status of Berlin as a whole. The article below is from 2001 and has them at 42 %: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/tuerken-in-berlin-beruf-arbeitslos-in-dritter-generation/214260.html http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/tuerken-in-berlin-beruf-ar... Summing up, while the specific numbers should be subject to scrutiny, the trend remains abysmal.
  - JBiserkov 10y ago
    I see, thanks for the detailed response.
rhapsodic 10y ago
> Well, whenever women seem to have a disadvantage (the whole MINT-discussion), society is supposed to fix it. What does MINT refer to?
- c06n 10y ago
  Oh sorry, that's German for STEM. It's math, information science, natural science, and technology (referring to engineering).
godmodus 10y ago
boys suck at school not because boys are bad at school, it's because school sucks and is today fine tuned for women. there's a distinct need to revise all schooling before it's too late, tbfh. the men of old were very well educated, those who could get an education. but it was a harsh education, so the world today isn't willing to deal with it. if boys sucked so much at reading and writing, we wouldn't have had all those male authors or male scientists. the system's whacked now, and it'll crash and crumble before it's fixed, especially in germany with their switch to MBAs, worsening school systems, and neglect of young boys (have nothing against trying to push women forward, just don't forget the boys)

by c06n 10y ago

JBiserkov 10y ago

>Almost half of the Turkish hailing migrants in Berlin are unemployed. 75 % of them did not graduate from secondary school. Wow, this is staggering. Do you remember where you saw those figures? (I don't doubt them, I just want to quote them in other discussions.)

c06n 10y ago
Unfortunately it's mainly German sources. I hope Google Translate can help here. They may also report different numbers, depending on who would be included in "Turkish migrants". Some address Turkish citizens (who have a work permit in Germany), some address German citizens of Turkish descent. The numbers I used are from this article: https://www.taz.de/!5176721/ https://www.taz.de/!5176721/ > 75 Prozent der Migranten türkischer Herkunft haben keinen Schulabschluss, fast jeder zweite ist arbeitslos. > 75 % of migrants of Turkish descent do not graduate from school, almost every second is unemployed. It's from 2008. Upon reflection I would expect that the situation is not as dire anymore, due to Germany's positive economic development. In any case, the trend in Germany hints towards a dire situation in any case (2009): http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-survey-shows-alarming-lack-of-integration-in-germany-a-603588.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-surv... > Some 30 percent of Turkish immigrants and their children don't have a school leaving certificate, and only 14 percent do their Abitur, as the degree from Germany's top-level high schools is called -- that's half the average of the German population. This article from 2016 references a report from the Federal Statistical Office of Germany. It states that over 40 % of the Turkish immigrants and their children only achieve a very basic school leaving certificate ("Hauptschulabschluss"). With this type of certificate, it is difficult in Germany to even get into a vocational school. Also, over 1/3 of the Turkish immigrants are poor: They earn less that 60 % of the mean income. https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article155700942/Warum-so-viele-Tuerken-in-Deutschland-scheitern.html https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article155700942/Warum-so-vie... https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Datenreport/Datenreport.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Datenreport/Datenre... Out of the 3 million Turkish migrants in Germany, 275,000 have received unemployment benefits in 2015. Only people actively seeking employment are eligible for those benefits. I could not find the absolute number for Germany for this population. But for the whole of Germany, we have 39 million workers, out of a population of over 80 million. The Turkish migrants tend to be younger, so a larger percentage does not belong to the workforce yet. I would therefore assume that the unemployment rate is around 20 % for Turkish migrants in Germany, and considerably higher in Berlin, due to the "special" economic status of Berlin as a whole. The article below is from 2001 and has them at 42 %: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/tuerken-in-berlin-beruf-arbeitslos-in-dritter-generation/214260.html http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/tuerken-in-berlin-beruf-ar... Summing up, while the specific numbers should be subject to scrutiny, the trend remains abysmal.
- JBiserkov 10y ago
  I see, thanks for the detailed response.

rhapsodic 10y ago

> Well, whenever women seem to have a disadvantage (the whole MINT-discussion), society is supposed to fix it. What does MINT refer to?

c06n 10y ago
Oh sorry, that's German for STEM. It's math, information science, natural science, and technology (referring to engineering).

godmodus 10y ago

boys suck at school not because boys are bad at school, it's because school sucks and is today fine tuned for women. there's a distinct need to revise all schooling before it's too late, tbfh. the men of old were very well educated, those who could get an education. but it was a harsh education, so the world today isn't willing to deal with it. if boys sucked so much at reading and writing, we wouldn't have had all those male authors or male scientists. the system's whacked now, and it'll crash and crumble before it's fixed, especially in germany with their switch to MBAs, worsening school systems, and neglect of young boys (have nothing against trying to push women forward, just don't forget the boys)